Wednesday, April 26, 2006

When is it OK to be a "settler"?

Generally speaking, the media, both in Israel and abroad, are rather clear in their attitude towards Jews living (or buying / building homes) anywhere in Judea, Samaria or eastern Jerusalem.

As an example, consider the following Ha'aretz headline:

Settler group takes over two compounds in E. Jerusalem

(West Bank Mama does a great job highlighting the extreme media bias found in this headline - and article - in her post: Since When is Buying an Apartment Building "Taking Over a Compound"?)

That being the case, when is it ok, in the eyes of the media, for a Jew to move into an apartment in eastern Jerusalem?

When you're Mordechai Vanunuu - the man who betrayed the Jewish People and State by releasing highly classified information relating to Israel's nuclear program, as is apparent from the following headline:

Vanunu to move into east Jerusalem apartment

Could it be that there is a double standard at play here?

For instance, if you are a proud Jew who seeks to strengthen the Jewish State and its hold on the Land of Israel by legally purchasing an apartment in eastern Jerusalem, then you are a settler who is taking over a compound. However, if you happen to be a Jew (who has since converted to Christianity), who is an enemy to both the Jewish State and People, then, in the eyes of the media, you are just a regular guy moving into an apartment that coincidentally happens to be located in eastern Jerusalem.


Thank you for the link!

By Blogger westbankmama, at Wed Apr 26, 08:54:00 AM GMT+3  

Its not just in the eyes of the media, Ze'ev. Vanunu cannot be compared to people who buy up property in Arab neighbourhoods via the Elad organization, etc. Likewise Amira Hass, who chooses to live in Ramallah. They do not unfurl massive Israeli flags and make their presence known- they wish to remain anonymous and live among Palestinians. Whatever their motivation is and however you judge them, their situations cannot be compared: there is a clear difference, and I'm surprised you can't see it.

By Blogger tafka PP, at Wed Apr 26, 02:38:00 PM GMT+3  

artist-does that change a compound into an apartment.There is only Jerusalem!!

By Anonymous daat y, at Wed Apr 26, 03:29:00 PM GMT+3  

Daat y- As I said on WBM's blog- they were referromg to apartment *blocks*, not single apartments. And further, the new inhabitants all then receive/security military protection. Does that sound more like an apartment or a compound to you?! I'm not excusing Haaretz's blatant we-hate-Elad crusade, merely looking at the facts...

By Blogger tafka PP, at Wed Apr 26, 04:47:00 PM GMT+3  

So, PP, what you are saying is that when a Jew decides to live in one of these places out of Jewish motivations - that is a bad thing, and as such, the media is justified in being so negative. Whereas, those like Amira Hass and Mordechai vanunu, whose have "other" motivations for living in those areas - it's totally cool.

I guess that explains why the media is so against Israel as a jewish State - if only we would follow the example of Hass and vanunu, turn ourselves into a bi-national state, the world will just love us.

Also, why do you think it is that Jews who live in these "compunds" need so much security? Is it to keep the noisy neighbors out?

By Blogger Ze'ev, at Wed Apr 26, 05:09:00 PM GMT+3  

I didn't say anything about positivity or negativity: You are the one creating this story, not me.

And I would be careful before you label or bar any motivations from being "Jewish" either.

By Blogger tafka PP, at Wed Apr 26, 06:50:00 PM GMT+3  

this is a healthy debate.
a sign of ademocratic and healthy society. unique in our region.
let's argue, let's duke it out, but let's remember that we're all on the same side.
Dry Bones
Israel's Political Comic Strip Since 1973

By Blogger Yaakov Kirschen, at Thu Apr 27, 09:30:00 AM GMT+3  

I am afraid that is no longer the case. Israel is not a democracy, for Democracies dont ban opposition parties that are doing too well, as Israel has done with both Kach and Kahane Chai. To be on the same side we would have to share some values and goals. The Torah Jews wish to serve Hashem, the Hellenists wish to be accepted by the Goyim. Our goals are different and in opposition to each other.

By Anonymous kahaneloyalist, at Thu Apr 27, 04:21:00 PM GMT+3  

Kirschen- Amen!

KL- your depiction might make sense if there were only two "camps" in Israel, but there aren't...

Ze'ev- cat got your tongue?

By Blogger tafka PP, at Thu Apr 27, 04:48:00 PM GMT+3  

PP, in Judaism, as I am sure you are well aware, both intenet and action are very meaningful.

Far too foten, people make the mistake of assuming that something that any Jew values is a Jewish value - and that just isnt the case.

On this point in particular, there is a great difference between the action of a Jew living in Yesha to strengthen the connection of the Jewish People to the Land of Israel, and the actions of Hass and Vanunu.

The Torah (both written and Oral) are very clear of the commandment incumbant upon the Jewish people ot settle the Land of Israel; to ensure that the Land of Israel does not fall into foreign hands, to prevent foreign entities that do not recognize the right of the Jewish People to the Land of Israel from gain9ing a foothold in the Land of Israel...

As such, when a Jew buys an apartment in eastern Jerusalem in order to ensure a jewish presence, they are acting in accordance with Jewish tradition.

I don't see how the actions of Vanunu and Hass can be viewed as being on the same level.

By Blogger Ze'ev, at Thu Apr 27, 09:52:00 PM GMT+3  

Feel free to prioritise your commitment to different Mitzvot as you wish, Ze'ev. But don't a) try to pass your own choices off as the monopoly of "Jewishness" and b) judge other people's choices of which Mitzvot are more important to then: You are not the ultimate Judge.

By Blogger tafka PP, at Fri Apr 28, 09:49:00 AM GMT+3  

PP, I agree I am not the ultimate judge. Everything I said in the last comment was not my opinion, but the opinion of Jewish tradition - the Torah and its sages.

How do you define whether a person's actions are "Jewish" oriented? Just b/c they are Jewish that meakes their actions representative of Judaism?

There are plenty of Jews who marry non-Jews, who don't keep kosher, who don't keep Shabbat - that does not mean that their actions are"Jewish" just b/c they are.

By Blogger Ze'ev, at Fri Apr 28, 10:18:00 AM GMT+3  

I would venture that people's actions can be defined as "Jewish" if they are following a specific Mitzvah when they carry out those actions. In this specific example, you seem to have decided that Jews who choose to settle the land of Israel are more "Jewish" than those who choose to show respect to all G-d's creation.

Your position seems very clear to me. We'll agree to disagree, shall we? But if you want meatier arguments with people who have been in Yeshiva more recently than I have, why don't you try reading and commenting on "Orthodox Anarchist"?

Shabbat Shalom.

By Blogger tafka PP, at Fri Apr 28, 02:41:00 PM GMT+3  

PP, in truth there are only two camps, even though I disagree with the Satmars about the details our goal is the same to serve Hashem, and we both accept the Torah, we just disagree about what exactly the Torah means in certain areas. Everyone who doesnt serve Hashem, whatever there reason is in the other camp. (Even if someone doesnt follow all the Torah they can still be in my camp).

PP, no where in the Torah is there a Mitzvah to respect all creatures. The Mitzvah, and you would know this if you'd learned Gemara Eruchin, is to respect and love all Jews it doesnt apply to goyim. In fact the Rambam(among many other Rishonmim) held that it is issur to even save the life of a goy unless they were also a Ben Noach. The Mitzvah to settle Eretz Yisrael overrides the normal phrohibition on risking your life and any Goy who resists Jewish conquest of Eretz Yisrael has forfit his life and the life of his family and it is a great Mitzvah to wipe them out as brought down by the Ramban Sefer HaMitzvot Mitzvah number four is the source. There is in fact nothing Jewish about being kind to our enemies and in fact that is a Christian anti-Jewish value, which has no bering on a debate on "Jewishness".

p.s. I wouldnt use Orthodox Anarchist as a source for Judaism since his ignorance of Torah is astounding to anyone who has ever been to Yeshiva.

By Anonymous kahaneloyalist, at Sun Apr 30, 06:47:00 AM GMT+3  

- I wasn't using Mobius as a source. I told Ze'ev (and you) to go and argue with him if you want to play "throw the meforshim at each other" which as you correctly patronised, I WILL NOT.

Again, it's all about interpretation. And that's why you are called "Kahane Loyalist" and I am not. And we're both Jewish, and you don't get any points for being a "better" Jew than me, or vice versa.

I'm exiting this thread now, and Ze'ev's blog.

By Blogger tafka PP, at Sun Apr 30, 05:26:00 PM GMT+3  

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