Tuesday, December 13, 2005

To Give or Not to Give - That is the question

When I arrived home from work yesterday, my wife shared with me an interesting dilemma that she had been faced with earlier in the day.

She had gone next door to visit our neighbor, and while there, two high school students came to the apartment who were collecting for a charity called: Agudah L'ma'an HaChayal (loose translation: Organization on behalf of Soldiers). This organization is responsible for providing Israeli soldiers with recreation centers and other amenities that help to make their time in the army that much more comfortable.

Our neighbor has been very involved in helping the Jews of Aza and the Shomron who had been expelled from their homes as part of the "Disengagement" plan (and who have been abandoned by the powers-that-be and are suffering greatly), and was in Gush Katif for a number of weeks prior to the expulsion.

She made it very clear to the two students that under no circumstances would she give any money to any organization that was assisting the IDF, which was responsible for the expulsion of thousands of Jews, and that she isn’t even sure if she will send her children to serve in the IDF.

The two students went on the defensive, arguing that not every soldier participated in the expulsion, and it's not right to punish all soldiers - who, by and large, do so much for the Jewish People and State of Israel, even if one didn't agree with the IDF's involvement in the "disengagement".

Ultimately, the two students left empty-handed, and I imagine, not in the best of spirits.

My wife expressed to me her mixed feelings regarding the situation. On the one hand, we were very much opposed to the expulsion, and believe that it was wrong for the IDF to have been involved in such an action. At the same time, we still do recognize the importance of the IDF, and as my wife expressed, we can't afford to totally reject all connections to the IDF, for numerous reasons, and as such, it might have been better to give something, as opposed to having these two students leave feeling the way they did.

Honestly, I don't know how I feel.

On the one hand, my wife and I are not rich by any means, and with the limited amount of money we have to give to charity, I can think of many better addresses than the IDF these days. On the other hand, while it may not be a relevant issue right now, I imagine, if I had a son, that I would encourage him to serve in the IDF (although I would make it clear to him that he would have my absolute support if he felt the need to refuse any order that was inconsistent with Jewish law). As much as it seems that the IDF, through the manipulation of the government, has betrayed so many of the principles and values that are central to the Jewish People, in the long run, we still need the IDF, and there is a value (a Mitzvah, in fact) to serving in the IDF and defending the Jewish People and Jewish State.

So, I do believe that our neighbor was right for choosing not to contribute to this particular charity. However, I am not totally certain that the she needed to express to the two high school students her reasoning behind not wanting to contribute. On the other hand, perhaps it was important for these two high school students, who will themselves be enlisting in the IDF in the future, to know how much pain, suffering and anger the participation of the IDF in the expulsion of thousands of Jews has caused.

Tough choices. Tough times.



45 Comments:

Well written post Ze'ev - you some up very well the current dilemna of today's Kanaim. For that is what the settlers today are - the equivalent of the kenaim of the time of the fall of Bait Sheni. More interested in fighting the enemy than preserving the unity of the Jewish people. That it should even be a question whether to give to this Tsedaka project is a sign that you and your cohorts are disengaging from the rest of the Jewish People. As the Jewish People choose life and peace, you choose G-d and sacrifice.

It is unfortunate that the majority of the Jewish People do not yet recognise that their greatest danger is not from without but from within.

H

By Anonymous H, at Tue Dec 13, 11:51:00 AM GMT+2  

Interesting.
I view today's Kanaim as those involved in (and supporting)the forced ripping of Jews out of their homes and farms, and then unceremoniously dumping them without jobs, communities, or homes.

These Kanaim are doing everything to remove any knowledge of Torah, history, and Eretz Yisrael from our youth, to the point where the children of today's Kanaim don't even know what "Shma Yisrael" is a reference to.

So while the Kenaim choose the death of Judaism and sacrifice of Jews to their false god of peace as they try to split the nation further, we Jews who truly and traditionally represent Judaism will continue to thrive and grow despite the evil and obstacles thrown at us by those Kenaim trying to drag us all down their road to national assimilation.

By Blogger Joe Settler, at Tue Dec 13, 12:06:00 PM GMT+2  

Joe, a btter term for what you are talking about might be "mityavnim", as opposed to "kana'im".

By Blogger Ze'ev, at Tue Dec 13, 12:26:00 PM GMT+2  

Haim, as I mentioned i nthe post, there are mnay (unfortunatley, too many) worthy causes to give to, and most people can't afford to give to all of them - I don't see any problem with someone choosing to give to other causes / charities to which they can identify with.

By Blogger Ze'ev, at Tue Dec 13, 12:27:00 PM GMT+2  

You are right, Ze'ev, everyone has the right to choose where they want to give Tzedaka.

But I really don't like your closing sentences. And I also don't like the fact that my cousin's recent tekes siyum at the Kotel was overrun by young Orange girls, demanding that the new 18 year old (religious) soldiers look them in the eye and tell them they weren't traitors for enlisting in the army of traitors: There is a lot more to this story and its implications than your neighbour refusing some schoolchildren and probably upsetting them.

By Anonymous PP, at Tue Dec 13, 01:44:00 PM GMT+2  

Ze'ev the issue is not which charities to give to - but the more worrying statements about your neighbours not sending their kids to the army. Why should I and my children die for you and yours if we are Am Ahad?

By Anonymous H, at Tue Dec 13, 02:06:00 PM GMT+2  

I agree with your post!

There is also another element involved. There are those in the leadership of the IDF who see one of the purposes of the IDF is to 'secularize' or 'expose to secular culture those who have been raised isolated from it'.

I do not define myself as either Chareidi or M.O. perhaps more Chardal, but that is what the leading Chareidi Rabbis have always claimed is one of the purposes of the IDF.

One of the leading proponents in the IDF for disbanding the hesder units, came out and said BIMFORASH that his purpose for this is for the above mentioned reason.

I have several relatives who went into the IDF dati, and came out chiloni.

By Blogger Yehudi Yerushalmi, at Tue Dec 13, 02:06:00 PM GMT+2  

PP - perhaps you can articulate what it was about the closing sentences that you didn't like, and then I could better respond to your feelings...

I agree that there is a lot more to the story than it merely being my neighbor not wanting to give money to this particular tzedaka - and while I do not believe that every soldier in the IDF is a bad person, nor do I believe that the IDF itself is inherently evil, and I do see a value in all Jews serving in the IDF, within proper frameworks, however, I do not believe that we can whitewash what the IDF was involved in, and the consequneces that go along with those actions...

While I am sure your cousin didn't deserve the treatment he got, nor do I believe that what happened was directed specifically at him - he is part of a body that is responsibile for the actions that it carried out - and we all know - or should know - how much pain, suffering, destruction... has been caused through these actions.

By Blogger Ze'ev, at Tue Dec 13, 02:08:00 PM GMT+2  

Haim, as I said above, personally, I believe that all jews should serve in the IDF - however, I do also believe in the right of a soldier to refuse orders that he believes violate Jewish law.

I believe that it is a great Mitzvah to serve in the IDF and to be involved in defending and strenghtneing the Jewish State and People...

However, I do not blame those who feel that as a result of the actions that the IDF carried out this past summer, that they can no longer be a part of such an army.

The expulsion of Jews from their homes in the Land of Israel is not the purpose of the IDF, and the fact that it was used for such a mission is tragic on so many different levels.

By Blogger Ze'ev, at Tue Dec 13, 02:12:00 PM GMT+2  

Yehudi, what you say is very true, all one nees to do is read this article about the values that the IDF seeks to inculcate in its soldiers:

The Spirit of the IDF:
http://www.jafi.org.il/education/azure/2/2-hauser.html

By Blogger Ze'ev, at Tue Dec 13, 02:16:00 PM GMT+2  

YY,

You are absolutely right - the army is an arm of the state and the state's purpose, as the embodiment of the Zionist movement, is to modernise (or in your terms, secularise) the Jewish People.

Zionism is an anti-Religious movement and always has been. It does threaten your identity and if you feel threatened by this you are correct to be so. And there is only one answer - stay in Galut!

By Anonymous H, at Tue Dec 13, 02:28:00 PM GMT+2  

Haim, are you saying that you prefer religious Jews to stay in Galut as opposed to living in Israel?

By Blogger Ze'ev, at Tue Dec 13, 02:31:00 PM GMT+2  

If it were not for Jews with a strong commitment to Jewish heritage and values, the State of Israel as we know it, a Zionist homeland for the Jews, would no longer exist. If it would have been established at all!

"Chareidi" Jews were the first ones to "make Aliya", and are the original "Zionists"!

The original secular Zionists only got their commitment to the Land of Israel from their exposure to traditional Jewish values.

The modern secular Israeli whose exposure to anything Jewish has been eroded to nothing, have no "Zionist" values, only post-Zionism remains.

The vast majority of them would not have moved to Israel had they been born in Chutz LaAretz, if they would have been aware of their Jewish identity at all.

It is ironic that the secular Israeli leaders call on the secular Jews from Chu'l to make Aliya in order to save them from assimilation.

The majority of those making Aliyah today from western countries are Jews with a strong connection to Jewish heritage!

Compare the way the (so called 'anti-Zionist') Chareidi Torah outreach institutions are always defending the State of Israel against anti-Israel propaganda, to secular "Zionistic" institutions who cannot attack Israel enough!

By Blogger Yehudi Yerushalmi, at Tue Dec 13, 03:19:00 PM GMT+2  

YY, well said.

By Blogger Ze'ev, at Tue Dec 13, 03:59:00 PM GMT+2  

I take issue with the fact that the IDF are now being blamed for their role in the pullout vociferously, while the other dimension of responsibility is being totally overlooked: had the Gush Katif residents left- or been encouraged by their leaders to leave- peacefully, months beforehand, we would not have had to put a single soldier through such traumas of pulling their fellow Jews out of their homes. But due to gross government mishandling, and simmering feelings of sinat chinam ready to pour forth from both sides (as discussed in your previous post) that did not happen, and we are where we are today.

My problem is this: Now you, your neighbours, and everyone and anyone (including these 15 year old orange kids who insulted my cousin at HER tekes) feels the need to become a halachik authority regarding who sinned and who didn't this summer, and who can claim the monopoly on morality in our tiny little country. Well, if demonizing the IDF makes you feel better about the pain of the gerush, who am I to stop you. But from your qualms as expressed in your post, you know as well as I do that this is not the way forward to mend our broken society.

By Anonymous PP, at Tue Dec 13, 04:21:00 PM GMT+2  

PP, the IDF, the army of the Jewish People and State took part in expellingthese Jews - that is a fact. Now, maybe, you may believe that they did the right thing, as many others that do, but that doesn't take away fro mthe fact of what the government ordered them to do - and to expect those who were against the expulsion of these Jews to view the IDF in the same light as before is not rational.

You say that if the GK residents would have just left, everything would have been ok... Why should they have left? Would you just leave your home? What crime did they commit? How is it that you don't see the problem wit hthe IDF , the army of the Jewish People and State throwing Jews out of their homes in the Land of Israel?

I am certainly no halachic authority, and it is not my place to cast judgement upon anyone who took part i nthe expulsion, but that does not mean that those who feel betrayed should act as if nothing happened. Not to mention that there are plenty of qualified Halachic authorities to make clear who did what wrong - not that it matters.

And why is it considred to be demonizing the IDf just b/c someone doesnt want ot give them money? If they need recreation centers, let the government or the IF build them. Why should someone be blamed b/c they want to give their money elsewhere? That means the yare demonizing the IDF?

By Blogger Ze'ev, at Tue Dec 13, 04:51:00 PM GMT+2  

Zeev and PP: My milluim a few weeks ago was very strange as it was the first time I put on an IDF uniform since before the Hitnatkut.

I'm very torn between my feelings of how we should view the IDF now that the deed has been done.

I think I'll post more on this tomorrow. Stay Tuned.

By Blogger Jameel @ The Muqata, at Tue Dec 13, 05:41:00 PM GMT+2  

For over a year the government said there was a solution for every settler.

The government knew how many Jews lived in Gush Katif and North Shomron – it knew how many people it would have to house and find replacement jobs for, whether they wanted to cooperate or not.

In fact, the government kept bragging that even knew in which room which child slept and the name of the pet dog.

Sharon and the government have a unilateral obligation to find a solution for the people whose lives they destroyed.

Yet despite that, here we are months later and no solution in site.

But you know what? Even just the month before the disengagement there was no permanent or even a satisfactory temporary solution for those that volunteered to leave early.

So who are you kidding, trying to put the blame on the people expelled from their homes?

Can you possibly be even more callous; is that how you plan to mend our broken society?

By Blogger Joe Settler, at Tue Dec 13, 06:27:00 PM GMT+2  

The IDF needs and deserves the 100% support of all Israelis and Jews everywhere. Our government, like all others, makes wrong decisions. When it deceided to expel the Jews, our fellow Israeli citizens, from Gaza, it made a giant whopper of a mistake. In fact, it made so many bad decisions as part of the expulsion that I cannot list them all.

Nevertheless, it is our government. Our job is to make it better, to make it represent our ideals and belief in the Jewish Land and People. Our job is to elect a government that is committed to the Torah and perpetuating Jewish heritage through education and support of laws that support our Torah.

For two thousand years, Jews have prayed to return to the Holy Land. We're fortunate to live here now. It is our obligation to work to elect more people to the government who support Jewish life in a way that respects all Jews, regardless of their level of observance. It is our obligation to bring unity among all Jews. It is our obligation to elect a government that will support our rich Jewish tradition and provide for its continuance and growth through extensive Jewish education for Jews at all levels of observance in both public secular and religious schools.

And as the process continues, we must give uncontitional support for our IDF!

By Anonymous Hillel, at Tue Dec 13, 07:13:00 PM GMT+2  

Late to the party today, but Hillel's comment rings loudest.

If you want to be upset about the disengagement, you need not look further than the government. Go back to the posts that were written back when the disengagement happened: People were overall quite impressed with the sensitivity the IDF carried out their jobs. It's unfair to hold them responsible for the actions they were told to carry out - we all know the worse disasters that could come from having an IDF that doesn't follow orders.

By Blogger Ezzie, at Tue Dec 13, 10:26:00 PM GMT+2  

Ezzie - "just following orders" doesn't cut it as an excuse in this country...

All those involved have to accept the responsibility for being involved. If they feel they did the right thing, then so be it - but let's not hide under the cover of following orders to justify any and every action.

By Blogger Ze'ev, at Tue Dec 13, 10:50:00 PM GMT+2  

It's not hiding at all. I was hoping you wouldn't use that argument - it's incredibly weak. One can feel as strongly as they want about the disengagement, and how terrible it is, yet still recognize the even greater necessity to follow the orders of the government. An army that does not serve its government is utterly worthless.

By Blogger Ezzie, at Wed Dec 14, 06:31:00 AM GMT+2  

Ze'ev and Joe Settler- If either of you had actually bothered to read my comment (beyond the statement about how the settlers could take SOME - not all- responsibility) you'll see that I didn't say any of the things you are accusing me of saying. I briefly considered removing that comment before I posted because it might possibly offend some people yet I was under the (clearly incorrect) impression that this was an adult discussion forum, and not some facile war of words.

Ze'ev doesn't like profanity on his site, so I will withold exactly what I would like to respond to Joe Settler now.

By Anonymous PP, at Wed Dec 14, 08:38:00 AM GMT+2  

Ezzie - my opposition to blindly following orders - in particular ones that are, according to many, in violation of Jewish law is a weak argument?

Is that to say that you when you make Aliyah, and if you are asked to serve i nthe IDF, that you will carry out EVERY order, regardless of whether it might violate Jewish law or not?

As I see it, a soldier i nthe IDF must be prepared to give not only his time, but possibly even his life over the course of his service, but he is not obligated to give over his soul...

We are not robots...COnsider what happened on Chanukah (not the PC version).

By Blogger Ze'ev, at Wed Dec 14, 09:58:00 AM GMT+2  

PP, I am not sure exactly what about the responses you found to be so offensive, and perhaps if you elaborated on the points, I (& Joe?) could respond.

I was responding to your point of how, in your eyes, those who opposed to texpulsion have demonized the IDF - which you stated numerous times, and I just do not think that that is a fair assesement of the situation....

By Blogger Ze'ev, at Wed Dec 14, 10:01:00 AM GMT+2  

pp:
"...while the other dimension of responsibility is being totally overlooked: had the Gush Katif residents left- or been encouraged by their leaders to leave- peacefully, months beforehand, we would not have had to put a single soldier through such traumas of pulling their fellow Jews out of their homes..."


I was specifically responding to your remark that some (or any part) of the blame or "dimension of responsibility" should fall on the head of the settlers or the settler leadership.

We have absolutely no reason, responsibility or obligation to assist in our own expulsion from our own homes in any way.

Any attempt to pass any part of the onus onto the victims is like saying (pardon the example) that rape victims share in some way the blame for being attacked.

So feel free to use whatever language you want. Statements like yours are already beyond the pale as far as I’m concerned.

By Blogger Joe Settler, at Wed Dec 14, 11:04:00 AM GMT+2  

Ze'ev. Go check out some of the opinion pieces from Arutz Sheva from over the disengagement, and then tell me that nobody demonized the IDF.

I'll leave with a non-profane comment to Joe Settler:

Believe it or not, (I suspect you'll choose not to because that fits better with your prejudices) I was just as distraught as you over the disengagement, in particular the way it was carried out and the fact that thousands are now traumatised and homeless because the Government clearly lied to them and did nothing to stem the demonization which poured forth from the media.

But those facts do not take away from their own responsibility. Your rape metaphor is wholly inappropriate. All adult residents of the shtachim are perfectly aware that they are or were living on land which we never annexed after 1967 and as such- divine promise notwithstanding- is still subject to final-status agreements. The settler movement knows that, and KNOWS that the governments have willingly capitalized on the spirit and passion to be found within the Land of Israel movement.

Yet this movement is a powerful and dynamic one, comprised of many passionate and intelligent people, and most Israelis (including plenty within the RW or Dati camps) now fail to understand how the movement has degenerated into this aggressive and belligerent force which now calls itself the only true voice of Zionism, and further is not prepared to recognise its role in what happened over the summer. Read any newspaper- left or right- for more "beyond the pale" statements far more direct than mine, Joe. Or keep your head in the sand. Up to you.

By Anonymous PP, at Wed Dec 14, 11:43:00 AM GMT+2  

Ze'ev,

Wow, this has turned into a real pitch battle in ideological terms, and I seem to have abandoned my comrade PP to take the flak.

Just to answer your question - Has V'shalom that anyone should stay outside of the State of Israel (come back yourself, please). I was not for one instance suggesting that religious Jews stay in Gola - rather suggesting that the spiritual exile, Galut, has not been affected in the case of Orthodoxy. The truth of the matter is, that for Secular Zionists, the State was the Messiah (as the Messiah was understood figuratively) that is to say, the exile ended for Secular Zionists on 5th Iyar Tashah. For religious people (and there really is no such thing as a Religious Zionist) there were two responses left open once the truly radical approach of Shmuel Haim Landau had been rejected (the original Bnei Akiva). Either you accept that Meshiah is on the way and this is the beginning of it - Rav Kook/Rav Z Y Kook/Gush Emunim / Settlers, or you reject the state as significant - Hareidim. The disengagement was the breaking point for the first camp. Hence the return to Galut - to a belief that the foundation of the state was essentially meaningless unless it is a Torah State. And it cannot be a torah state, because a torah state will not be able to operate in the world. And so the only choice is to reject the state and its symbols - starting with that which broke the dream - the IDF.

I agree with you that the settlers cannot look at the IDF the same again - how could they. And while I think that Joe's rape analogy was disgusting and just proves how orthodoxy distorts morality, it is also proof of the feeling of betrayal and aggression that the Settlers feel. That is because they were essentially engaged in an attempted revolution against the government and they lost.
The question now is - what should the position of the State, and the majority of its citizens who support it, be to those who tried and are trying to overthrow the rule of law and disband the established order? I hope that we can find a way that will recognise the settlers' pain, recognise that they have been used, recognise that they have been betrayed, recognise their humanity beyond their hatred. But we can only do all this without giving in to the hateful agenda of occupation.

By Anonymous H, at Wed Dec 14, 12:48:00 PM GMT+2  

pp:
(part 1)
So if I understand you correctly, only someone living on annexed land (even though only Israel recognizes and accepts that annexation) can bear no personal responsibility at all.

I guess the Jewish residents of the Old City of Jerusalem living in the “Moslem” Quarter (which was the Jewish quarter before 1948), and other Jews living in “East” Jerusalem (also annexed) can now breath easier.

Because when Barak was prepared to give away their homes to Arafat at least they wouldn’t have born any negative responsibility, having settled in Israeli annexed occupied territory.

And if today’s reports on Sharon’s intentions are correct, at least they will be innocent as they are kicked out of their homes.

It has nothing to do with annexation or not. It has only to do with what the Left thinks will eventually appease the Arabs and the US to keep the Arabs from claiming their rights to Tel Aviv.

By Blogger Joe Settler, at Wed Dec 14, 01:10:00 PM GMT+2  

(part 1b)
I forgot to add, since all of Jerusalem was annexed, how exactly did Barak introduce it into his final-status negotiations/offer?

Answer: Annexation is meaningless.

By Blogger Joe Settler, at Wed Dec 14, 01:13:00 PM GMT+2  

H:
My rape analogy was disgusting!

Why don’t you go over and ask any former Gush Katif resident how they felt or even feel at the moment?

Do they feel personally violated? Do they feel robbed? Do they feel raped?
Are many of them now suffering post-traumatic symptoms similar to what rape victim’s exhibit?

I think you’ll find that they, as the victim, find the analogy to be extremely accurate.


And rebellion against the State?
I saw nonviolent civil disobedience to try to prevent the government from ripping them out of their homes they grew up in and paid for with money and blood. That’s completely acceptable resistance to an immoral government policy in a democracy.

On the contrary, I did not see a single gun or even a stone raised against a soldier or statesman. You Leftists live in some incredible, imaginary world.

By Blogger Joe Settler, at Wed Dec 14, 01:24:00 PM GMT+2  

To both pp and h:
Another reason why the rape analogy is fitting as you’ve both so eloquently proven.

If someone drove in a bad neighborhood and his car was jacked, while the driver might be considered stupid, no one would ever think to mitigate the crime of the perpetrator simply because the driver should have not have been there.

Yet how often have we heard that the girl dressed provocatively and in some small part brought in on herself and the court asked to take that into consideration.

By Blogger Joe Settler, at Wed Dec 14, 01:40:00 PM GMT+2  

H:
"A Torah State will not be able to operate in the real world"?!

What a strange belief.

We had a Torah state for quite a while (run by both sinners and saints) until eventually the Romans destroyed it.

Yet, somehome it managed to operate in the real world.

I wonder what's different today?

Can you imagine, a Jewish Head of State demanding kosher food for dinner, or a meeting pushed off until after Shabbat?

Or worse, the social rights of the citizens being protected so they can't be forced to work 7 days a week and have no life beyond what their boss tells them?

What a strange concept.

Could never work.

By Blogger Joe Settler, at Wed Dec 14, 02:01:00 PM GMT+2  

Joe Settler: for the last time, nobody is disputing the horrendous traumas of the Gush Katif residents during and post-pullout.

I am not going to even dignify your disgusting rape analogies with a response, beyond telling you to check out www.1202.org.il and read up on court procedures in rape cases before you throw any more ridiculous and offensive statements.

It has nothing to do with annexation or not. It has only to do with what the Left thinks will eventually appease the Arabs and the US to keep the Arabs from claiming their rights to Tel Aviv.

And you can keep telling yourself that too, if it makes you feel better. Who were you calling delusional?

By Anonymous PP, at Wed Dec 14, 03:28:00 PM GMT+2  

I am away from my computer for a few hours... and this is what happens?!?

I'm happy that this post has been able to elicit such passionate responses - I had an earful from my mother about it today...

Haim, Joe and PP - play nice...

By Blogger Ze'ev, at Wed Dec 14, 04:09:00 PM GMT+2  

pp: You are the one laying part of the blame on the victims, not me. I’m sorry if you don’t like my analogy, but plenty of the disengagement victims agree with it.

The word ‘rape’ may simply be too emotionally charged for you to make an objective comparison between different violations via physical force (where, by chance, the victim tends to sometimes draw part of the blame).


But back to the issue on hand.

Where exactly is the delusion?

If annexation makes everything kosher in Israeli eyes (even when the rest of the world doesn’t accept it), then once again, how did Barak put annexed parts of Jerusalem on the final-status negotiating table – particularly when Jews would have to have been expelled from those annexed areas?

They certainly moved there thinking it was part of annexed Israel (and hoping to strengthen our hold on it).

Answer: Because Oslo, in all its stages, was and is only about appeasement. And it failed.

The Left sees all of Israel as stolen occupied land, but 1948 magically made some of the stealing OK because we needed it.

The Left don’t believe that Arabs and Jews can live together, but in the Left’s guilt over the 1948 robbery, it’s always the Jews who need to leave to make peace, because we are foreign illegal occupiers.

So, the Arabs have never once backed down from their demand for all of Israel, while Israel keeps trying to give away more land hoping for peace, peace, peace while trying to keep stolen Tel Aviv.

That’s about appeasement not annexation.

By Blogger Joe Settler, at Wed Dec 14, 04:28:00 PM GMT+2  

Joe Settler, you have gone much too far and leave me no choice but to exit this "discussion".

I can't speak for H, but I'll probably not be back here for a while. Sorry, Ze'ev. I'll email you.

By Anonymous PP, at Wed Dec 14, 05:36:00 PM GMT+2  

I guess that means you won't answer the question about the Left trying to give away annexed parts of Jerusalem to the Arabs, and more specifically how it would affect the "settlers" living there, who moved there thinking they moved to a place that is a "legally annexed" part of Israel and not about to to be given away.

By Blogger Joe Settler, at Wed Dec 14, 05:45:00 PM GMT+2  

Joe,

You make a point that the settlers feel violated and that the symptoms from which some of those who were evacuated suffer could be considered similar to those experienced by a rape victim. Now let's turn it round - who is the rapist? It seems to be the left? But who is the left? The Arab Parties weren't in government, Meretz wasn't in government? Who was this Left? Who was the government who passed it = the Government of Ariel Sharon who was the head of Likud - the party Moshe Feiglin is now running to lead. Is Moshe Feiglin a leftist? Of course not - this stupid demonisation of "the Left" as if "they" carried out the disengagement is ridiculous. Soldiers are not rapists. As PP and I both said - we can understand why the Settlers feel violated. But what was the alternative - for the army to withdraw and leave those settlers to be slaughtered by the Palestinians trying to take back the land? You would actually have preferred the Israeli government to have left the settlers there when the army left? Are you mad?

Your rapist analogy is of course part of your disdain for women brought on by an adherence to Orthodox Judaism which believes that Women should be passive and accepting of Men's dominance. The fact that you are a victim of your poor education does not excuse you from use of such a disgusting comparison.

H

By Anonymous H, at Wed Dec 14, 06:28:00 PM GMT+2  

Joe Settler,

Now to relate to some of the other ridiculous points you make.

"I wonder what is different today?"

Uh maybe 2000 years of history have gone by and the concept of might is right no longer applies?

And can you actually prove that the Hasmonean state was a torah state? Because if you think you can you may need to study a bit of Jewish History.

Or are you suggesting that Herod was a torah-true Jew?

Don't get me wrong - I have nothing against a torah state - just not the torah as understood by the vicious racists in National Union.

My torah would be the one where the most repeated mitzvah is to love the stranger. My torah would be the one which talks about the equality of humankind. My torah would be the one which was a reflection of a particular time and thus needs to adapt with the world. I don't mind a torah state - I mind your idea of a torah state.

By Anonymous H, at Wed Dec 14, 06:32:00 PM GMT+2  

Haim, who is to say that the Torah doesn't apply anymore? Do you have the authority to do so?

Are you saying that all NU voters are vicious racisits? Racisits? Or just vicious?

Does that mean that any Jews who believes that the Jewish People have a right to a Jewish State in the Land of Israel, and that that that claim supercedes any other claim, and is therefor unwilling to make concessions - is that person a racist?

When you say your Torah - is that different from the traditional Torah? If for you, your Torah is all about the equality of humankind, loving the stranger.. so why be Jewish, lets just be humanisits - good human beings that love everyone - like John Lennon sang about...

By Blogger Ze'ev, at Wed Dec 14, 06:59:00 PM GMT+2  

H:
Your rapist analogy is of course part of your disdain for women brought on by an adherence to Orthodox Judaism which believes that Women should be passive and accepting of Men's dominance. The fact that you are a victim of your poor education does not excuse you from use of such a disgusting comparison.

Gee. Ad hominem attacks.
The first external indication that your opponent knows he has lost his argument.

But at least we now all know that the basis for all your arguments is your overt hatred for Orthodox Judaism, which somehow, in your twisted mind led you to make all those asinine and incorrect assumptions about me and Religious Jews in general.


I will only waste my time commenting on a few of your more idiotic statements (since you seem to just want to take this down to the gutter).

In the previous election, we were clearly offered the policies of the Left – unilateral disengagement, vs. the policies of the Right - “din Netzarim – k'din Tel Aviv”.

The policies of the Right were clearly voted in.

Suddenly, against the wishes of the voters, against the party platform that was voted for, and against the internal vote by the Likud party policy makers, the policies of the Left were implemented with the full and indispensable support of the Leftist parties.

Oh, and the Labor party is Left by the way, since you don’t seem to know that.


Does that answer your question or do I need to use smaller words and concepts for you?


Do I think the soldiers should have left the settler behind?

No, the soldiers and the settlers should not have left at all, but you can’t accept that concept at all, in your hatred.


Actually the concept of “Might makes Right” is still what runs the world. That is why Iran wants Nukes, and the US is afraid to make a move because it doesn’t know if it can take a beating at the moment.
Only in a Leftist, universal, humanistic (imaginary) universe does war not resolve arguments.


Ahhh “Racists”.

Personally I’m not an NU member, so that can’t be directed at me. But I find it interesting that NU members choose to clearly acknowledge the hostile philosophical agenda of this country’s enemies, while you would probably have airport security searching 90 year old women and babies for bombs out of political correctness (though if they were Palestinian old women and babies you’d be right actually).


While I’m sure that in your torah you also turn the other cheek, you clearly can’t read either.

During the Hasmonean and Herodian era we had a Temple, a Sanhedrin, Sacrifices, etc.
Quite a significant number of important symbols, icons and policies of a Torah state.
We also had rulers who were sinners and saints as I clearly wrote.

But you probably don’t believe that Kings David, Solomon, or even Hezekiyau existed, so for you there never was a Torah state.

By Blogger Joe Settler, at Wed Dec 14, 07:17:00 PM GMT+2  

Ezzie - my opposition to blindly following orders - in particular ones that are, according to many, in violation of Jewish law is a weak argument?

Is that to say that you when you make Aliyah, and if you are asked to serve i nthe IDF, that you will carry out EVERY order, regardless of whether it might violate Jewish law or not?

As I see it, a soldier i nthe IDF must be prepared to give not only his time, but possibly even his life over the course of his service, but he is not obligated to give over his soul...

We are not robots...COnsider what happened on Chanukah (not the PC version).


According to many? No - according to few. Even among the dati leumi and chardal crowds, there were many rabbonim who paskened a soldier must carry out orders. The ones who argued against were in the minority. (Most, wisely, kept quiet.)

That has NOTHING to do with whether I (or anyone) would carry out an order if it violated Jewish law. Your equating of the two is pretty ridiculous - you're essentially throwing out dissimilar rhetoric to make the opposing view look bad, but in reality there's almost nothing that's similar.

To say that carrying out the disengagement was 'probably against halacha' and 'selling your soul' is quite an insult to all the soldiers who were there. And while you obviously mean it to be, I think you're sadly mistaken.

By Blogger Ezzie, at Wed Dec 14, 08:30:00 PM GMT+2  

Thanks guys...I just posted to my site a few posts about orange/blue and everything in the middle.

muqata.blogspot.com

By Blogger Jameel @ The Muqata, at Wed Dec 14, 11:17:00 PM GMT+2  

Joe,

The comment I meant was not meant as an Ad Hominem attack - but, as you noticed, an attack on Orthodox Judaism, which, while I do not hate, I recognise as an enemy to enlightened Zionism. I apologise if I offended you personally. I do however think you are wrong to suggest that there is any proof that there has ever been a Torah State (as defined by Rabbinical Law).

H

By Anonymous H, at Thu Dec 15, 12:10:00 PM GMT+2  

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