Wednesday, November 23, 2005

Yet another question to the Israeli Left

I recently posed a question to the Israeli Left, dealing, in part, with why they are ok with "asking" Jews who live over the Green Line to "relocate" to within the pre-1967 (Auschwitz) borders, but not with "asking" Israeli Arabs to "relocate" outside of Israel (with compensation) in order to deal with the serious demographic dilemma facing the Jewish State.

While I still am awaiting an answer to my original question, I will pose another question to my friends on the Israeli Left (and their supporters) (courtesy of Arutz-7):
MK Talab El-Sana (whose party is called the United Arab List) is calling upon Israel’s Arab parties to unite under one electoral list. El-Sana says that by unifying into one list, the Arabs could thwart plans to build more Jewish communities in the Galilee and Negev regions.

El-Sana said that unity was necessary “in light of new political developments and their expected ramifications on Arab citizens.” He specifically cited Peres’ plan to expand Jewish settlement in the Galilee and the Negev. He said that a unified Arab list could “push that plan and its dangers for Arab citizens” off the public agenda.

El-Sana says that a unified list would raise Arab participation in Israeli elections to 90%... If Arabs voted according to their percentage of the general population (20%), they could elect up to 24 Knesset representatives.

It is clear that not only is their opposition both from within and without regarding the right of Israel to build and develop Jewish communities in Judea and Samaria, but now we also have Israeli Arabs (and their elected officials) stating their opposition to the building and expansion of Jewish communities in the Negev and Galil regions (both within Israel's pre-1967 borders).

* Is the Israeli Left, in the name of democracy, willing to allow Israeli Arabs to work towards limiting the development and expansion of Jewish communities within Israel?

* Is the Israeli Left, in the name of democracy, willing to allow the Israeli Arabs, should they unite into a single electoral bloc, to win 24 seats in the upcoming elections (or in the future), and make up the 2nd largest party to sit in the Knesset of the Jewish State?

* Is the Israeli Left, in the name of democracy, prepared to sit quietly and watch the Jewish State destroyed through peaceful, democratic means at the hands of our fellow Israeli citizens, who just happen to be of the Arab persuasion?

If the answer of the Israeli Left is in the affirmative, that they are willing to place Israel existing as a democratic state - a State of its citizens - over Israel existing as a Jewish State, then they will make very good democrats, but very poor Jews.

If, however, the Israeli Left is that they are not willing to allow the Israeli Arabs to destroy Israel, as a Jewish State, through babies and ballots, then what is the solution of the Israeli Left?


Isn't what that arab said 'gazanut'-discrimination against Jews.

By Anonymous daat y, at Wed Nov 23, 07:58:00 PM GMT+2  

It only works one way, unfortunatley...

By Blogger Ze'ev, at Wed Nov 23, 08:41:00 PM GMT+2  


Your original "question to the Israeli Left" like this one, was I assume rhetorical - as I cannot imagine who you chose as a representative of "the left" to ask. But I will try and answer partially this question. Though I would not claim to speak for the whole of the Israeli Left.

Firstly - your choice of reference material really must improve - Arutz 7 has the reporting reputation and ability of the Stalinist weekly. So let us get one thing straight - if all the Arabs of Israel came out to vote and every single one voted for this United Arab list, it is possible that they would get 24 seats - but why would we assume 100% voting for this list when at the moment nearly a 2 fifths of all arabs vote for Zionist parties? Why would we assume that there would ever be a 100% Arab turnout and not 100% Jewish turnout? And why can any decent reporter work out that if 20% of the population are Arab, but that only 15% of the over 18 population are Arab then that would lead to 24 seats. Basically - who employed the author who wrote this article?

But on to my answer to your questions.

Yes - in the name of Democracy I am willing to allow people I disagree with to try and convince the public through the legal processes of their agenda. Even though I disagree with MK El Sana - he is allowed to work against Jewish Settlement in predominantly Arab areas. Even though I disagree with the Jewish Racism of Moledet - they are allowed to work towards the promoting the concept of transfer of Israeli citizens of Arab origin outside of the state.

Yes I am willing to let Arabs vote, and unite their voting power. Do you realise that if religious Jews were to vote en masse all for the same party, then they would receive over 35 seats in the knesset - would we then be ruled by Torah law and live in a Jewish Iran - no because the other parties may also unite in the name of sanity. Actually a united Arab list would be good for the right wing because it would push the Jewish population rightwards and in favour of the racist agenda of the far right.
As for the third question, and the crux - to start with a correction - there is no such thing as an "Arab Persuasion". when referring to someone of being of a certain persuasion, it reflects a religion, set of beliefs, ideology, etc, which they espouse, not an ethnicity. By trying to imply that all Arabs think alike, you use stereotype and generalisation to infer that all the Arab citizens of Israel want to destroy the Jewish state. This is racist and dangerous. But to answer your question - the assumption of the question is wrong - that somehow democracy poses a threat to the Jewishness of the country as opposed to the two being complimentary. How can a Jewish country be Jewish if it is not ruled by the Jewish people? If it is ruled by Ze'ev and his rabbi - is it not Ze'ev and his rabbi land? Surely the whole meaning of Israel belonging to B'nei Israel is that B'nei Israel decide what happens in this country. Now we have to recognise that there are people who do not define as Jews, or B'nei Israel, but do define as Ezrahei Israel within the State. You would like to define these people by the talmudic classification of Ger Toshav, while I would like to think of them more in the biblical frame of reference as like the non-Israelites who journeyed with the Israelites through the desert, and joined the Israelite nation through the re-establishment of the brit at har sinai. what is the event similar to the re-establishment of the brit - the birth of the modern state of Israel. With that - the arabs of Israel, became israelis, and as such pose no demographic threat to B'nei Israel, as they are now part of us.

Now a question to the Israeli Right - if the land of Israel is more important than the people of Israel, why do you claim to be part of the Jewish National movement Zionism. Is this not one big lie? Are you not trying to decieve us?

By Anonymous Haim, at Thu Nov 24, 01:40:00 PM GMT+2  


Did you mean Gizanut? Then no, it isn't. It is political interest.


By Anonymous Haim, at Thu Nov 24, 01:41:00 PM GMT+2  

MK Talab El-Sana's suggestion for the Israeli Arab population to unite and vote for the combined Arab list has one purpose i.e. the destruction of Israel as the Land of the Jewish People. While I agree with the commenter who said above that all Arabs do not think alike, a unified Arab list could serve to their advantage if it were to deal with problems of education, health, infrastructure, etc. However, since his proposal only deals with defeating Israeli Jews, his proposal should be considered racist and he should be thrown out of the Knesset and prosecuted under the existing laws. The same approach should apply to all MKs who support the enemy in their statements or visits to enemy nations.

By Anonymous Hillel, at Thu Nov 24, 03:34:00 PM GMT+2  

Amen, Haim! Eagerly awaiting Ze'ev's response...

By Anonymous PP, at Thu Nov 24, 03:43:00 PM GMT+2  

Haim (and PP), I can understand why you do not like A-7, but if you say that A-7 is the mouth of the Right, then Ha'aretz - Al Ard is the mouth of the Left, and their journalisitic standards are not the highest or most objective...

2nd, As for the numbers of how many seats in Knesset the Arab parties could potentially earn - it does not matter whether or not it is an accurate reflection for right now - the bottom line is that every year that goes by, with the shrinking Jewish demographics it becomes more and more of a possibility - so either that is something that concerns you and you are willing ot take steps to prevent, and to preserve israel as a Jewish State - or you are not.

3rd, you write: "in the name of Democracy I am willing to allow people I disagree with to try and convince the public through the legal processes of their agenda...
Yes I am willing to let Arabs vote, and unite their voting power."

You then go on to make a comaparison by saying that Moledet, a party whose policy you deem racist, or haing all religious Jews unite in order to show how much you are willing to to accept the will of the people.

Where I disagree is that there is no equivalency between moldet or religious parties and the Arab parties. Moledet and the religious parties believe in Israel existing as a Jewish State, even though you may not agree with their definitions of it. On the other hand, the Arab parties seek to peacefully and democratically vote according to their interests, that are certainly not Jewish ones...

As such, allowing al arge bloc i nthe Knesset who is voting against even the most basic Jewish interests and against the interests of Israel existing as a Jewish State...

I do not believe that all Arabs think alike, however one thing that I do believe that almost all Arabs would agree upon is that ifthey could turn Israel into Palestine, whereby htey would be the majority and do away with israel existing as a jewish State, they would do so in a second - and I have a problem with that.

Haim, you are seriously pushing the envelope by claiming that the Arabs have become members of Bnei Yisrael... It's almost as good as the idea of the Reform actively recruiting converts...

It's one thing to say that the Jewish People have a right to determine what goes on here in Israel, even if that may go against Jewish Law, and then it is anothert to basically include Muslims within the Jewish People.

I guess that if you do this, demography isnt a concern, as you can just make up a defenition as to who counts as a Jew.

As to your question, the Land of Israel is an intrinsic part of the Jewish People and their ability to fulfill their collective mission and destiny...

We are not complete without it...

And no, the Arabs aren't part of this Jewish people to which I refer.

By Blogger Ze'ev, at Thu Nov 24, 04:44:00 PM GMT+2  

Ze'ev baby!

I am not sure you can rightly claim that Ha'aretz and Arutz 7 have an equal level of reliability and objectivity. But it is a peripheral matter, not one to waste precious work hours writing on.

And I accept that if one is a racist and sees difference as threat, then the issue of exactly how many seats a truly united and well represent Arab list gets is irrelevant - it is the principle. Those who are different from us (not halachically Jewish, for you) should not be allowed to have a say in the running of the state. I recognise that in your eyes, it doesn't matter, how many of them there are, there very existence, and their potential to grow is a threat. My point was not that - my point was that the attempt to distort facts to fit one's ideological agenda is the cornerstone of propaganda which has been used too many times by anti-semitic regimes for it to be considered acceptable in Israeli political discourse.
I lost you on your analysis of my main points - i think you didn't finish some sentences. There were a few sentences left with open subordinate clauses which impossible to fathom. But I got your main point - there is no equivalency between the racist parties of the right and the arab parties. According to you the racist parties of the right are ok because they are Jewish but want to destroy democracy whereas the Arab parties aren't ok, because while they are willing to accept democracy they are working against the Jewishness of the state. I see why they are different, I don't see why they cannot be paralleled in my argument. You are a greater fan of Judaism (as you define it) and they are a greater fan of democracy (as they define it). Neither you nor they are Zionists - Zionism being defined as the self-determination of the Jewish people. They because they have no interest in being part of the Jewish people, you because you have no interest in self-determination, rather you would like the Jewish people's destiny to be determined by your rabbi and what he believes G-d says to him. So yes I disagree with your party and the arab parties - with them because they reject the possibility of integration into Israeli society, and you because you reject sense, reason, democracy and peace in the name of your G-d.
I am willing to admit that I am pushing the envelope by trying to redefine Jewishness to include all Israelis, whether of Jewish descent or not. But history is made by "envelope pushers". The Hashmonaim did the same thing - only forcibly. in the time of Ezra, thousands of non-Jews joined the jewish people. One only need to look at my blue eyes and fair hair to know that somewhere along the line I am not a pedigree pure blood. And that doesn't bother me one bit. You can call it halacha, you can call it religion, but bottom line, excluding people from the Jewish people on the basis of who their mother was is racist. There are ways of defining who is and isn't american, or french, or italian, or british. So there should be ways of defining who is and isn't Jewish. And eventually - when the exiles really are returned, that definition will be "k'chol ha goyim" based on whether you live in Israel or not.

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