Monday, February 27, 2006

Treat us like Jews!

Amir Peretz, Labor party leader, has stumbled upon a new cause to champion:

Peretz: The time has come to treat settlers like human beings

My first (and obvious) reaction to the headline was that this represented a pathetic attempt at electioneering - with Peretz and the Labor party trying to reach out to a new segment of the voting public to boost Labor's numbers in the upcoming elections.

Yet, even so, I was hopeful.

It's not everyday (during elections or otherwise) that you have a left-wing party reaching out to the "settlers". Generally speaking, as is the case with Ehud Olmert and the Kadima party, votes are won in Israel by demonizing and abusing this segment of the public (think Amona).

As such, I decided to give Amir Peretz the benefit of the doubt, and I took a closer look at what he had to say:

Labor Party Chairman Amir Peretz told settlers on Sunday that he would act for generous compensation and support by the state in exchange for voluntary evacuation of West Bank settlements...

"The time has come to treat settlers as human beings. They are the salt of the earth. We must build new towns and neighborhoods for them," Peretz said. "It's even worth giving the evacuees double the compensation, to prevent a confrontation and because it is an investment that pays itself off," he said.


There you have it.

In Amir Peretz's world, and sadly for many others here in Israel (particularly the country's leadership and elite), nothing is sacred, nothing is worth fighting for, nothing is worth sacrificing for and nothing is worth dying for. Everybody has a price. Faith, ideology, and a life lived based on belief and ideals are all admirable, but at the end of the day, those are also for sale - even if it requires paying a hefty sum (in this case, double the amount spent by the government on those expelled from Gush Katif).

If Amir Peretz truly wanted to treat the "settlers" with respect, why not talk to them as Jews, and not as human beings? Why not try to understand where they are coming from - of the centrality of the Land of Israel to the Jewish People and Jewish destiny? Why not try to understand the ideals, the vision and beliefs of those who are living through Judea and Samaria (and formerly Gaza) and why they (along with countless Jews throughout the ages) have been willing to sacrifice so much in order to live by those ideals?

Instead of talking to the "settlers" as human beings, and investing billions of NIS in expelling them from their homes (whether through force or coercion), why not treat these "settlers" as Jews, and invest that money into bridging the gaps that exist between the Jews of Judea & Samaria and those elements of Israeli society whom the Labor party represents - and thus work towards strengthening Israel as a Jewish State, as opposed to the State of Israel merely being a refuge of human beings?

We find the answer to these questions in a related article in the Jerusalem Post, through an encounter between one of the "settlers" and Peretz:

"It was your party's spirit that founded the settler movement," accused Hadera. "You are talking about this as if it was in the past and the decision has been made that we would leave. I don't want to leave, she said.

"The new spirit of my party is one of peace," responded Peretz. "The spirit of the settler movement and the spirit of peace are not on the same path. It is the spirit of peace that will direct our future, he said.


Amir Peretz's future is driven by his quest to achieve peace. Whether peace will come through the Oslo Accords, the Road Map, the Geneva Initiative or "Disengagement" matters little to Peretz. The fact that the road to (a false) peace for Peretz is paved with Jewish blood and tears is of little consequence, so long as at the end of the day we can live in peace, and exist as a normal people - as a nation like all others.

Peretz, however, is right about two things:

1st, that the "spirit of the settler movement", namely the recognition that the future of the Jewish People and State revolve around our faithfulness to the Land of Israel, People of Israel and Torah (Heritage) of Israel stands in direct contrast to Amir Peretz's "spirit of peace" that is based on retreat, appeasement and the abandonment of the Jewish Heritage and Homeland.

Peretz's "spirit of peace" is a spirit that is based on the desire to run from Jewish destiny and history; a desire to no longer live our lives as Jews and for the State of Israel to no longer view itself as a Jewish State (with all of the obligations and responsibilities that go along with that); a desire to undergo a conversion from Judaism to Secular Humanism, and to replace the Jewish State of Israel with a State of Israel that exists as a nation like all others; a nation made up of people who believe in nothing and stand for nothing short of the present, the temporary and the fleeting (Read: Peace Now) - a nation made up of individuals who all have a price.

2nd, that the future of the State of Israel hangs in the balance of which path - which spirit - we decide to follow.

Will we follow the "sprit of the settler movement" or the "spirit of peace"?

Amir Peretz has made his decision. Have you made yours?



29 Comments:

"strengthen Israel as a Jewish State"

With 3 millions of Palestinians living among us? I don't think so.

By Blogger Fabián, at Mon Feb 27, 12:08:00 PM GMT+2  

Zeev,

I've had to read this thru twice to see if my eyes are deceiving me.

It would appear not: I can't quite believe that you believe everything you've written.

By Blogger tafka PP, at Mon Feb 27, 12:10:00 PM GMT+2  

Fabian, I agree that a sloution must be foun to deal with the Arabs living in the heart of the Jewish homeland, but I do not believe that the answer is giving away our birthright - certainly not to those who only seek to destroy us (even within the 67 borders).

PP - which parts are you having trouble with?

By Blogger Ze'ev, at Mon Feb 27, 01:07:00 PM GMT+2  

Excellent Post.

By Blogger Joe Settler, at Mon Feb 27, 01:08:00 PM GMT+2  

Ze'ev,

While I cannot possibly answer on behalf of PP, I will tell you the bits that made me choke.

When asking the question, Will we follow the "spirit of peace"? You expect the answer to be no!

You claim, despite knowing nothing of Amir Peretz, that he wants to "run from Jewish destiny and history".

You seem to suggest that anyone who disagrees with your intention to turn Israel into an apartheid state is anti-Jewish.

You leave no room for the possibility that people who disagree with you about the nature, the essence of Jewishness can still be committed Jews. Despite the fact that Amir Peretz has dedicated his life to the Jewish people (including serving in the IDF - a little more than some of the NU list) you question his commitment to the Jewish people. Who gives you the right to claim others are working against Jewishness?

Who gives you the right to claim that anyone who disagrees with the racist agenda of your party is interested in "the abandonment of the Jewish Heritage and Homeland". You, who live outside the borders of the state of Israel, are telling me and the millions like me that we are abandoning Jewish Heritage?

Lastly, how dare anyone be so bold as to say,

"The fact that the road to (a false) peace for Peretz is paved with Jewish blood and tears is of little consequence,"

How dare you imply that Amir Peretz does not care about Jewish blood. In my eyes (and I will not be voting for him), he cares a lot more about Jewish blood being shed than the youths in Ammona who through building blocks down on to the Soldiers of the idf who were doing their duty and following orders.

Ze'ev. It is one thing to have an opinion, it is one thing to stand opposed to the mainstream and defend that opinion. It is one thing to be ideologically committed to one's opinion and reject the other sides arguments.

It is totally another to claim that your opinion is the only valid Jewish one and that the other side are some how less Jewish, or care less about the loss of Jewish blood than your side does.

Let us remember that throughout the whole disengagement from Aza, two people died of disengagement related injuries. Both of them were anti-disengagement activists who set themselves on fire. Who is it who doesn't care about the sanctity of Jewish life??????

By Anonymous H, at Mon Feb 27, 01:43:00 PM GMT+2  

H:

You talk despite knowing nothing about the NU's position.

The NU doesn't want to turn Israel into an apartheid state. Read www.therightroadto peace.com for the NU's actual position and political solution for a Jewish State.

Now if you wanted to say that Meretz wants to create an apartheid Palestinian state with no (or only token) Jews in it, that would be a much more accurate statement of reality.

It would seem to me that it is quite valid for Ze'ev to hold his opinion as valid and completely reject yours and even consider yours less or not-Jewish, particularly when your opinion on Judaism diametrically opposes his.('Your' being a generic term for the 'other side')

You persoanlly seem to be very upset about his exercising his freedom of speech - I hope he hasn't touched a nerve.

I can't speak for Ze'ev, but I understood that perhaps Zeev feels that the Right values living Jewish lives more than those who blindly keep trying to sacrifice them to peace.

And while you keep trying to denigrate those living outside of the 'borders of the state of israel', the facts are 1) it is racist to say that jews can't live anywhere they want because they are jewish, and b) the territories are under Israeli authority.

By the way, I love how always you find some individual's example and then use it to paint the entire 'Right', while ignoring the activities of the the left as a whole. You really prove your point with that.

By Anonymous joosrool, at Mon Feb 27, 02:50:00 PM GMT+2  

Haim, 1st to echo a point raised by Joosrool, why s it ok for you to label those on the right as being fascist and racist, but yet you have a problem when those on the right label thoseo n the left as not caring (or being serious) about Judaism?

I do believe that those, like Peretz, who insist on pushing the "peace process" forward, whether unilaterally or in negotiations are causing tremendous damage to the Jewish People and State - and that countless more Jews will be muredered, wounded, or otherwise be unable to live as proud Jews, securely in their Homeland as a result.

I also believe that these decisions are not based on Judaism, but on western, secular values.

I also believe that these decisions are not based on what is in the best interest of the Jewish People and State, but what is in the best interest of the Israelis and the State of Israel.

I do believe that Amir Peretz, along with many others in the Knesset, the government and the elite in this country care more about Israel being a "democratic" country (meaning: secular and western, but not really democratic) than they care about Israel truly being a Jewish State - whereby the needs, interests, concerns, heritage and beliefs of the Jewish People, both in Israel and out of Israel come before all others...

By Blogger Ze'ev, at Mon Feb 27, 03:25:00 PM GMT+2  

I agree 100% with what "h" said.

I must confess I didn't read Zeev post until the end, before reading h's comment, because I am too, shocked like him about what Zeev wrote.

"a nation made up of people who believe in nothing and stand for nothing short of the present, the temporary and the fleeting (Read: Peace Now) "

I am not peace now, but Zeev is clearly drawing a demarcation of two camps that only exist in his imagination as the only ones possible.

Two questions: 1. do we have to have sovereignty over the West Bank to be Jews? 2. A Jew who lives in Tel Aviv or Rishon LeTzion cannot be a Jew? Please!

By Blogger Fabián, at Mon Feb 27, 03:32:00 PM GMT+2  

Fabian, nowhere did I say that these are theo nly two camps possible, it wasi n fact Amir Peretz who was the one who broke it down into 2 camps, I was using his breakdown:

"The spirit of the settler movement and the spirit of peace are not on the same path. It is the spirit of peace that will direct our future, he said.

So, how would you define the spirits? It would not be honest to say that Amir Peretz and Labor have been strong allies when it comes to Judiams in the Jewish State - even within the Green Line. When Peretz speaks of the spirit of the settler movement, he is speaking about religious Zionism - or at least the stream of religious zionism that is not content sitting on the back of the bus and getting a pat on the head from the leftist elites who run the country for being nice Jewish boys and girls.

Peretz himself knows that for the "settler movement" peace is not a end in and of itself, as it is for him, but a means to an end - a means to allowing us to live as proud Jews in the Land of Israel - in a Jewish State.

For Peretz, it's all about the "spirit of Peace" - that's the end game. Peace. No matter what. Even if we will only be left with Tel Aviv, it's worth it, b/c we will have peace...

And to answer your questions:

1) No. Anyone who is born to a Jewish mother or converted in a manner acceptable to Jewish law is a Jew.

2) See answer #1.

By Blogger Ze'ev, at Mon Feb 27, 03:47:00 PM GMT+2  

joosrool: "THE RIGHT ROAD TO PEACE " plan is a joke. Can't you see that it is just a dream?

You want to cling to stones until we all draw blood for you. No way.

By Blogger Fabián, at Mon Feb 27, 03:49:00 PM GMT+2  

If the Right Road to Peace is just a dream, then Oslo and Geneva are nightmares.

Sderot,Ashkelon, and Netiv Haasara are already paying for the nightmare of disengagement. Keep clinging to that.

By Blogger joosrool, at Mon Feb 27, 03:55:00 PM GMT+2  

Joosrool,

I think i know plenty about the NU position - a good friend of mine is running for election for them.

Until the merger with NRP, it held that the Arabs of Yehuda and Shomron should be voluntarily transferred to Jordan. In the link you provided (which is not an official NU site, but rather a site dedicated to Benny Elon's personal peace proposal), the following is written:

Israeli sovereignty will be asserted over Judea, Samaria and Gaza (the West Bank). The Arab residents of these areas will become citizens of the Palestinian state in Jordan. The status of these citizens, their connection to the two states and the manner of administration of their communal lives will be decided in an agreement between the governments of Israel and Jordan (Palestine).

Without any need for interpretation, the above says that Israel will have sovereignty over an area, and those people who live there of a particularly ethnicity will not be granted citizenship. That's apartheid.

I am not upset about Ze'ev exercising his freedom of speech - in fact, I have not tried in any way to prohibit it. I think he should be ashamed of his opinions, but then I would - I thoroughly disagree with them. As for limiting freedom of speech, so far on this blog I have been reprimanded for calling the youths in Ammona terrorists and have been told that if I continue with such hateful slurs I will not be debated with (oooh, I am scared). I agreed not to use such a term. And then, I have been told that it is not within the etiquette of fair debate to use Ze'ev's words against him to paint the party he represents. Forgive me, I thought that was the point of representing a party - being a dugma of the ideology it represents. So no, no nerves being touched.

AS for denigrating those who live outside the borders of the state - I think both Ze'ev and I would agree that the future of Jewish history is to be decided in the state of Israel.

AS for the issue of individuals representing the whole - given that on this blog, Ze'ev has linked to the site of Honenu, who represent Yigal Amir and are trying to get him freed, I would claim that it is relevant for discussion, no?

And given that one of the posters here (which may well be you, actually) goes by the pseudonym, Kahaneloyalist, I think he is pretty much in the ball game too. And given that we are talking about politics, and movements and the like, I guess that it is pretty fair to say that when pictures of Baruch Goldstein were held up at political demonstrations, then that demonstration can be said to include people who agree with him. In terms of ignoring the activities of the left as a whole, I don't know what you are referring to.

Moving on to Ze'ev,

Fascist and Racist are political terms which describe positions which I think represent the NU ideology pretty well, hence I use both to describe the NU. I think on this blog I have demonstrated why both are appropriate in the past. (I recall going into an explanation of fascism centring on Mussolini's use of the fascist symbol of a circle of arrows tied together). I also recognise your right to say that Amir Peretz doesn't care about Judaism. What I objected to was the statement I highlighted above:

"The fact that the road to (a false) peace for Peretz is paved with Jewish blood and tears is of little consequence"

That isn't about saying th left is anti-Judaism, that is about saying a person doesn't care about Jews dying. Given, Ze'ev, that you have never served in tzahal, and that Amir Peretz has, on what grounds would you make this claim?

You claim that the drive of the left for Peace is not a Jewish drive - on this we disagree. I am thinking along the lines of "tevakesh shalom v'radfehu". Tell me how do you get to, Peace isn't a Jewish idea?

This is the bit which really bamboozles me though:

"I also believe that these decisions are not based on what is in the best interest of the Jewish People and State, but what is in the best interest of the Israelis and the State of Israel."

Did I miss the point when you stopped believing that the Jewish People's home was the state of Israel?

By Anonymous H, at Mon Feb 27, 03:56:00 PM GMT+2  

H: I noticed that you still haven't addressed the racist and apartheid aspects of Meretz's platform that call for the creation of an apartheid Palestinian state that will not have Jews living in it.

By Blogger joosrool, at Mon Feb 27, 03:59:00 PM GMT+2  

It seems to me that Benny Elon, the head of the NU, clearly states that he favors the creation of a Palestinian state and that all Palestinians will be citizens of it.

The right of the Palestinians to achieve their national aspirations (except for the national aspiration to kill Jews) will be allowed and promoted in the Palestinian state.

If Palestinians live in a foreign state like Israel, their civil rights will be fully protected, and again they will again have their full national rights in Palestine just over the river (where they already currently make up 80% of the population).

As long as Palestine and Israel maintain cordial relations and accept the border of the Jordan river there is no problem between the free exchange of people and commerve between the two countries (and that means Jews going to the other side too).

Unlike Meretz's platform of no Jews in Palestine, where exactly is the Apartheid?

By Blogger joosrool, at Mon Feb 27, 04:10:00 PM GMT+2  

I will only make one more post, because it is obvious that joosrool and Zeev are not to be convinced.

May I ask if the King of Jordan has accepted Benny Elon's plan for giving him 3 million new citizens while keeping the West Bank in Israel or is it just more delusionary thinking? Like Palestinians citizens of Jordan continuing to need to ask permission from Israel to build their houses or buy more land? Sure that is a recepy for good relations with them and Jordan!

I second H's question. Is or is not praying for Shalom and making Shalom one of the pillars of Judaism one of the greatest contribution of Judaism to the world? It seems that I must have gotten it wrong.

My mother and father, as my grandfathers and grandmothers were Jewish without knowing exactly where Nablus/Schehem or Hebron are located. Sadly for me, I must know all these irrelevant facts because part of my people consider stones and trees more important than living as Jews. Part of my people have deserted Judaism for something that resembles idolatry (of the land).

Where were these people before 1967? I guess that they were normal Jewish people. That is why I want to say goodby to them in this blog in good terms, because I know that soon, maybe this year, maybe the next, they will buy shawarma next to me, will say prayers next to me. And will live next to me.

Bye, see you later!

By Blogger Fabián, at Mon Feb 27, 05:18:00 PM GMT+2  

Are you so completely unaware that you don't know that King Abdullah's wife, the Queen of Jordan, her Majesty Rania is Palestinian, and the heir to the crown is half Palestinian?

In a few years Jordan will be a Palestinian State with 90% Palestinian majority and a half Palestinian King - unless they find revolution or democracy, and then it will be a state with a 90% palestinian majority and a full palestinian warlord/president, but you still wouldn't consider anything less than a Palestinian state on both sides of the river, would you?

By Blogger joosrool, at Mon Feb 27, 05:57:00 PM GMT+2  

Fabian, we hardly knew you...

I can't tell if you are insulting or complementing me when you say that you wont post anymore b/c it is obvious that I can't be convinced.

I think Haim has the right attitude. I have long ago tried to convince Haim to change his ways, and I believe he has given up on me as well. In spite of that, I enjoy my discussions with Haim, as I feel I learn a lot from his and gain a better understanding of those whose viewpoints differ with mine.

I am all for Peace - but it depends how you define peace. Peace, in my eyes, is not capitualting ot terrorists and giving up on what rightly belongs to us. I am prepared ot live in poeace with all of the nations of the world, so long as they are prepared ot accept the Jewish People for who they are, and allow them to live as proud Jews in the Jewish State throughout the Land of Israel - and that is a vision of peacce consistent with Jewish tradition.

Show me where in the Torah that peace means capitulating before ones enemies?

As for idolatry - if you see no inherent value in the Land of Israle - then what are you doing here in the 1st place? This is the Land that G-d gave the Jewish People making it clear to them that this is the only place in the world where they can fulfill their unique mission and destiny in this world - that's why I am here, and that's why Hebron, Beit El, and all of the other places that are mere sticks and stones to you are so important to me.

Rabbi Yehudah HaLevi, of the Kuzari fame, stated that the redemption of the Jewish People will come once they cherish the dust and stones of the Land of Israel.

In your eyes, I guess he was a lowly idolater...

By Blogger Ze'ev, at Mon Feb 27, 09:41:00 PM GMT+2  

Ze'ev, from reading your blog and posts you clearly mean well, but you have also been affected by the Goyish culture. Stop being afraid to embrace the Torah, yes, Democracy is incompatible with Torah. When the Hellenists say, how can you want a apartheid state? you should answer, because its what the Torah demands. When they complain of Religious coercion you should answer, keeping thr Torah isn't a choice but a requirment.

Ze'ev in the end the Geulah will be brought not through compromise, but through giving up all fear of the Hellenists and Goyim.

By Anonymous kahaneloyalist, at Tue Feb 28, 04:17:00 AM GMT+2  

Joosrool,

You say that in your imaginary world where Benny Elon gets to change the Hashemite kingdom of Jordan into a Palestinian republic, the Palestinians in Israel (the newly enlarged Israel) will get to have full civil rights. Given that we are a democracy, full civil rights would mean voting. So actually, you are suggesting that we end the Jewish State and make it a bi-national state? Given that you haven't mentioned forcible transfer and there is no reason for the Palestinians who have lived in Eretz Yisrael for over a century and a half (the vast majority) to move to the other side of the Jordan. So actually you are a raving lefty who thinks that the 4.5 million Palestinians between the Jordan and the Meditteranean should be allowed to make Israel into a second Palestinian state. Wow!

As for your claim about Meretz supporting an apartheid system for any future Palestinian state, please tell me where you get this from. The Meretz platform makes no mention of what sort of government the Palestinians should set up when they have the chance to do so.

If you mean that by dismantling settlements over the green line before giving the territory to the palestinians - then that is about removing settlements, which according to our own definition had to be temporary, as according to our own definition the territories were under military administration and all civilian presence was by the permission of the army and subject to change. Meretz does not say anything about whether Jews should be given full Palestinian citizenship if they should choose to take it after a Palestinian state has been set up.

The real question to be asked is - when Israel hands over settlements to the Palestinians in a final agreement, why should the settlers be forced to move - I would argue that ethically, if they want to stay, then an argument could be put forward that they should be allowed to, having been disarmed. But given that this would probably lead to their complete massacre it would be immoral and irresponsible to allow such a thing. Are you suggesting that the Israeli government should allow the palestinians to butcher the settlers once we make the next disengagement?

By Anonymous H, at Tue Feb 28, 09:13:00 AM GMT+2  

Kahaneloyalist.

It is nice to see a completely honest comment on this site.

Keep praying for Meshiah, and who knows, you may get your dream.

As for the religious co-ercion argument - are you suggesting that the religious in this country should forcibly sieze power and enforce the shulhan Aruch as state law?

H

By Anonymous H, at Tue Feb 28, 09:15:00 AM GMT+2  

This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.

By Blogger Mackie, at Tue Feb 28, 09:38:00 AM GMT+2  

H:
It's amusing how you play with words and definitions when you twist the truth.

So I won't argue your purposeful misinterpretation of what I wrote regarding the NU.


Let's instead concentrate on other words you twist to fight your argument. We'll use the sources in fact.



It says in Geneva article 5-i "The state of Israel shall be responsible for resettling the Israelis residing in Palestinian sovereign territory outside this territory.", which, except to someone like you who chooses to play word games, means, no Jews in Palestine.


But perhaps most amusing is how you actually view your Palestinian peace partners.

On one hand you claim that the Geneva accord will bring peace.

On the other hand you gallantly pretend to be worried about the health of Jews if they are left behind.


If Geneva will bring peace, why would Jews living in Palestine have to be worried about being butchered and massacred by your peace partner?

Why do you feel that your peace partners, after achieving peace through Geneva would devolve (or are they already there?) to such primitive barbarism that it would immoral to leave Jews there?

The reality is, as a leftist you are also a racist.

You look down on your Palestinian partners as immoral, primitive and dangerous. You negotiate with them as "full" peace partners, but to reuse your words, you consider them massacring butchers.

What makes you dangerous and short-sided is that you would give them a state so they could grow even stronger and more dangerous, even though you know what they really are.

By Blogger joosrool, at Tue Feb 28, 10:24:00 AM GMT+2  

Joosrool,

My point that I would like to evacuate the settlers to stop them being butchered does not mean I think all palestinians are murderous butchers. I think that given that the Palestinians feel they have been denied freedom by Israel for 40 years (whether rightly or wrongly), the settlers staying in their settlements would be viewed as a threat and a provocation and an attempt to deny the palestinians the right to the land which they see as their own. In these circumstances, I would predict violence, and with 3 million palestinians and 50,000 unarmed settlers (i predict most people would sensibly leave voluntarily), then the likelihood would be that the Settlers would lose any armed confrontation and probably all would be killed.

My prediction that Palestinians would want vengeance on the people who they believe have kept them captive for so long, is not racist, it's sensible.

As for Geneva - The part you claimed is talking about the withdrawal which the plan envisages - it does not say that Jews cannot apply for Palestinian citizenship or be awarded it. It is talking about Israel removing settlements and settlers that it has placed in lands occupied from Jordan in 1967, and which the Palestinians now claim as theirs.

I accept your reproach regarding my claim that settlers would be butchered if they stayed on after a withdrawal - perhaps I should not have made it. I would not say it makes me a racist.

It appears to me that this conversation has become what you claimed - an attempt to twist each others' words which isn't really going anywhere. You hold your position, I hold mine.

We both see the positives in our own arguments and I am sure that on some level we recognise the positives of the other's.

I recognise that your ideology is more true to the Orthodox Jewish understanding of G-d, Torah, Israel - people and land. I am absolutely certain that if RaMBaM were transported from the 12th century to now, without stopping in between, he would support your position. Of course I would claim that is because your position is one suitable to a 12th century understanding, but that is irrelevant. You believe in certain things which I do not believe in. And I believe in certain things you don't believe in.

You believe G-d wrote the torah and gave it to Moshe on Har Sinai. I cannot say that I positively hold that to be true (though I don't deny it is possible). You believe that G-d wants the Jews to live in all of the land that he promised us and that we should rule their under Jewish law, which does not grant non-Jews the right to decide national policy. I don't.

I don't really think the current discussion is going anywhere. Do you?

By Anonymous H, at Tue Feb 28, 11:36:00 AM GMT+2  

Haim, at the end of your last comment, you list the set differences between your ideology, and that of peopl like mine and Joosrool - and how those differences seem impossible to overcome...

But, that being the case, those ideological differences are relatedto nearly every post on this blog, and not just this one...

We, unlike those who support Kadima, Likud, Labor... are driven by ideology - and that permeates all...

By Blogger Ze'ev, at Tue Feb 28, 11:45:00 AM GMT+2  

Ze'ev: excellent points throughout. I didn't take the time to read all of "h"'s comments or those posted by Fabian, but I did notice a couple of things.

1)these lefties hold completely distorted opinions on the very nature of the JEWISH state of Israel and its purpose in the modern world: "to live a free nation in OUR land". Instead of being the laughing stock of the world we must be a beackon of light unto the nations. This means that we must stay strong and defy all odds in order to remain by defintion a JEWISH state.

2. You negate Ze'ev's right to express his opinions because you claim his extremist, fascist...the usual leftist, defeatist, self-riteous rhetoric. I understand you and know your type. I understand that you'd like nothing less than the capitulation of Israel to Hamas and know that you're one who'd run back to America or wherever you came from as soon as you had the first opportunity

BTW: the whole fable Meretz-Yachad is trying to convince us of: that they are the true Zionists and that they want to simply distance us from the "palestinians", that they want equality, freedom, separation of church(synagouge) and state, etc. is a bunch of bull. In reality you guys are a bunch of parasites who want peace at any price even if that means more spilling of Jewish blood.

Hope all lefties go home to Europe along with their Arab sleeping mates, Eitan.

p.s. kahane loyalist: I'd say you're insane but I realize you're probably entirely incapable of understanding anything other than Torah, Torah, Torah.

By Blogger Greg, at Wed Mar 01, 10:14:00 AM GMT+2  

woops...i just noticed Ze'ev resides in Israel...the joke's on you,h, you spineless apologist.

Oh, and how dare you comment on this Zionist post, you commie!?

the Left-basher, Eitan.

By Blogger Greg, at Wed Mar 01, 10:50:00 AM GMT+2  

Ze'ev,

I was not saying that generally that discussion between the two ideological viewpoints was bad - but just that this discussion had ceased to be about ideology but had degenerated into picking at the wording of our arguments - I was trying to point out that we had seemingly got off ideology on to other less profitable grounds.

As for Eitan / RegReg. I am confused - are you being sarcastic? which side are you even supporting? And as for Ze'ev living outside of the borders of the state - both he and I recognise that to be the case. He would argue that the State is wrong in not including his abode in the borders, but he does recognise that Israeli Governmental law classifies his house outside of the state and in "administered territories".

As I have said to Ze'ev and others - I do not negate his right to express himself - when i ask a question such as "how dare you?" it is not a negation of his right to freedom of expression - more a request for explanation.

I am so glad you understand me and know "my type". It is so very reassuring to be understood. I am a little confused about one point - you say that you know that I would run back to America (or wherever I come from) as soon as I have the chance. What exactly is stopping me now?

I assure you I have never had an arab sleeping mate.

And I also assure you that I do not want any Jewish blood spilt. Frankly this claim from the religious right that the left do not care about the security of the state is completely unfounded. If one were to look at the record books one would find that the kibbutz movement have been at the forefront of defending this country from its birth.

It is a ludicrous piece of slander to suggest that the left do not care for the security of the citizens of Israel, particularly when that security is in fact threatened by the settlers and the porous borders they force us to put up with.

By Anonymous H, at Wed Mar 01, 02:15:00 PM GMT+2  

Oy vey, what a depressing hour.
I just read all of Ze'ev's posts since Sunday Feb 26 and all their comments.
It is clear to me that some buzzwords are used that mean different things to each side. Like peace, democracy, judaism...
I just take issue with Ze'ev's painting Likudnikim as non-ideologues. I recognize that NU's campaign is to do exactly that, thereby trying to pick up votes from the only pool they have (except Marzel and non-voters), but I think that many Likudnikim are ideologically motivated, and if you attach "have a chance to lead the country" to that ideology, you are left with Likud alone. But I'm not too worried, for I know that there won't be too many Likud voters that will defect to NU in spite of NU's efforts, and even if they get a mandate's worth, that won't make the difference. I'm only sorry that all the activists campaigning against Likud could have been campaigning against Kadima, the true political nemesis of NU and Likud both. And the only real way to campaign against Kadima is to campaign for Likud.
My apologies to H and Fabian and other readers for this intranacine argument:-)
PS It looks like this blog generates more comments than any of the other few I look at! kol Hakavod, Ze'ev and commenters!

By Anonymous Gidon (Likud Central Committee member), at Thu Mar 02, 04:25:00 PM GMT+2  

Gidon, if only the Likud was filled with people like you and Feiglin, i would agree wholeheartedly - but sadly, its not - and while Manhigut Yehudit is trying to do good things -the bulk of the Likud and its leadership are against you and will do whatever is possible to keep you from power.

Perhaps in 20 years things willl be different - but we dont have the luxury of waiting 20 years to start working.

By Blogger Ze'ev, at Thu Mar 02, 04:31:00 PM GMT+2  

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