Friday, December 02, 2005

On Being an Idealist...

The other day, after being labeled as being both controversial and extreme, I laid out a number of my beliefs pertaining to Israel and the Jewish People and asked my loyal readers to tell me if these beliefs were in fact either controversial, extreme, or both.

Among the comments that I received to the post, there seemed to be a bit of a common theme through out (at least with those who didn't agree with the beliefs I set out):
* Not an extremist, no... but as I've told your bro, sometimes a wee bit unrealistic...

* And as a side note, some might term it as being too "idealistic".

* ...a little disconnected from the reality on the ground.

* ...this post is far more realistic (even though it's extremely idealistic) than some of your others.

So, my question, once again to all of my readers is, what is wrong with being an idealist?

I was talking with my close friend Yishai last night, and he mentioned Theodor Herzl's famous words: "If you will it, it is no dream". When Herzl began running around talking about creating a Jewish State, people mocked him and laughed at him, but he was one of the people who helped to lay the groundwork for the future Jewish State of Israel. Vladimir Jabotinsky had a vision during WWI for the creation of a Jewish army - the 1st one in 2,000 years - and once again, his vision was met with scorn and derision by his Jewish brothers and sisters. Yet, he persevered, and he was able to help found and serve in the Jewish Legion (which fought with the British in Eretz Yisrael) - which was the predecessor to the Israel Defense Force.

If one goes back even 70 years ago, perhaps less, who would have believed that there would be a Jewish State of Israel in existence today? Who would believe that the majority of world Jewry would soon be living in that State? Who would have believed that the Jewish People, who for the good part of the last 2,000 years were strangers to both fighting and farming would be able to build the IDF, among the best armies in the world today, as well as take a country that had been desolate for 2,000 years and literally make the desert bloom? Who would have believed that Jews from all over the world, East and West, North and South would all come together in Israel - a modern day Ingathering of the Exiles?

None of these things were realistic or practical. Every one of these things happened because the Jewish People believed. They had faith. A faith that was unbroken for 2,000 years of Exile, and they would not be denied.

If I was a practical / realistic person, I would still be living in NY. I wouldn't have the privilege of owning my own home with a view of Jerusalem. I would not have been blessed with a daughter born in Jerusalem. I would most likely have gone into a career where my main concern was making lots of money, instead of working to inspire and connect my Jewish brothers and sisters to the Jewish people and the Land of Israel...

The Jewish People have always been above history - we are a super-natural People. Our mission and destiny in this world are not based on reality but on idealism and vision and our faith in Hashem.

Was Avraham Avinu a realist? The progenitor of the Jewish People was exactly mainstream with his belief in the One, True G-d. How about King David? The Maccabim?

Where are all the great empires that had such practical and realistic worldviews? Greece, Rome, Persia, Egypt, Babylon, the Soviet Union, the Ottoman Empire? All gone - forever, into the dustbins of history - and yet, the idealistic, persistent, stubborn Jewish People have remained, unwilling to bend or break with the times.

The Jewish people still have so much to accomplish, and on paper, none of it seems to be possible, so what is a Jew to do? Give up?

So, am I an idealist?

Of course I am... but as a Jew, I don't know any other way to be.


Ze'ev, I love this blog.

I should start by noting that as I'm responsible for 2, if not 3 of the 4 lines above, your statement "at least among those who didn't agree" isn't quite right.

I actually do agree with just about everything you wrote in that post.

There is nothing wrong with being an idealist; in fact, it should be recommended to everyone. By the same token, one cannot be a pure idealist and function properly. There's a path required to get to the ideals you're pursuing, particularly if you want them to be true for an extended period of time.

Here's a great example which you can relate perfectly to: I believe I discussed it with your brother once, too.

I want to move to Israel. So does my wife. Theoretically, we can pack up and move in a month or two. I'm sure we could find a fairly priced place to live, find jobs, and do okay - and we'd be in Eretz Yisroel. But this isn't the proper path. Most couples who move to EY move back to the US within 3 years. Why? Poor planning and no money. All my relatives and family friends recommended establishing ourselves in the US, save up plenty of money, and only when we're very stable, move to Israel. That way, we should never run into issues.

I'll make one last note. It is precisely because Jews were not just idealistic, but practical, as opposed to the idealistic civilizations you mention, that they were successful. Think about it: The Greeks were obsessed with finding out more about philosohpy; the USSR was based on a completely idealistic system. The Jews were always the ones who didn't get hung up on their ideals, and instead transcended their abilities and were able to create that much more.

*cut short, falling on face*

By Blogger Ezzie, at Fri Dec 02, 11:44:00 AM GMT+2  

I, too, am an unabashed idealist. I always tell people that I believe in dreams, that if you want anything bad enough, you can make it happen. We have incredible strength and power within us to enact what is said to be impossible - history proves that. I am in awe of a person who casts aside the practical and rational for his dreams - aim high and strive even higher!

As you point out, you have a great line of predecessors to follow. Go for it!

By Blogger Shoshana, at Fri Dec 02, 01:43:00 PM GMT+2  

Wow, look what you write when you're half asleep.... I didn't make a word of sense. I think I recall something about football and a car...

All right: We all need idealism. Every piece of greatness in history began with an ideal.

On the other hand, pure idealism does not work either. Once you have understood your ideals, you must act in a way that will not only allow you to achieve them, but retain them for as long as possible. One must be realistic and work in stages in order to succeed... as is true with anything, you have to start at the bottom and work your way up. You can't pretend that you're already at the top and can do as you please; you must be realistic, and know who you are.

You wrote that as a Jew, you must be an idealist. True. But as a Jew, you must be a realist as well.

Let's use an example from Israeli politics: (I just wrote 2 posts on Israel finally that you may appreciate, btw...) I don't know if this is happening, but let's say an orange party was created - an anti-disengagement party. Idealistically, they're wonderful - they're frum, they refuse to give away land for terror, etc. What would be the point in voting for them? To take away votes from another RW party? To further weaken any say that other parties may have had as part of the government?

No - the proper approach would be to unite the parties, even if they don't see completely eye to eye, on the right. NRP, a dead party, should join National Union. National Union should talk things over with Likud, and strongly consider running together with Likud. As it stands now, Sharon could pull about 30 seats: And then he can play the sides off each other until he gets what he wants.

Sometimes we need to sacrifice our ideals temporarily so that we may appreciate them further in the future. Perhaps normally one would never join the Likud in a government; but in this case, ideals are best served by being practical.

By Blogger Ezzie, at Fri Dec 02, 02:34:00 PM GMT+2  

sulam mutsav artza verosho magia hashamima.'

By Anonymous daat y, at Fri Dec 02, 04:05:00 PM GMT+2  

As a pleasant aside, Ben-Gurion once said, "A Jew who doesn't believe in miracles is not a realist"

By Anonymous Strong Bad, at Fri Dec 02, 04:25:00 PM GMT+2  

keep dreaming.. without people like you, the world would be a boring place and nothing would get done.

You mentioned that

"Most couples who move to EY move back to the US within 3 years "

when in fact most poeple who push off their Aliyah indefinitely to save up "enough" money to make Aliyah never end up coming..

Trust me on this one...many of my good friends just aren't thinking about it anymore.

My other unsolicited advice about those that are planning to make aliyah, practically, if you want to come and stay.. you have to be an idealist... so start saving up on your bitachon in Hashem..

It's not the amount of money that i dont have that keeps me here. It's because of the blessings that Hashem bestows upon me each day.


Thank you for the quote.

By Anonymous a friend, at Sat Dec 03, 08:19:00 PM GMT+2  

Ezzie, I agree with "A Friend" completely - there are so many more people who have good intentions - and who say they want ot make Aliyah - just that they wanto t do it right, who then get caught up and never make it...

I am not saying that you shouldnt try to come prepared, but at a certain point you just have to take a leap of faith... either you believe this is where hashem wants us to be, and you are going to e committed to making it work, or you don't...

By Blogger Ze'ev, at Sat Dec 03, 09:09:00 PM GMT+2  

Ze'ev and a friend: Granted. That's why you have to be an idealist as well - those who are constantly pessimistic are constantly saving up to go (or sometimes, not even) and never actually do.

OTOH, I mentioned that this was the advice of all the people who HAVE moved. The fact that so many are forced to return because they can't afford/handle it does say a lot. The fact that people who have lived there for anywhere from 5 to 25 years say so says a lot as well.

Great example: My wife's sister and family just made aliyah: They're 30-31 years old. They saved up, he built up a good job in Canada, and still works that job from in Israel. They moved originally for 1 year, to see if they could handle it; now they're doing Year 2, and will decide for certain after this year. Odds are, they're staying; but they did it wisely.

There's a balance of realism and idealism that is necessary; one can't always be idealistic and expect things to work out. You have to be realistic as well.

By Blogger Ezzie, at Sun Dec 04, 08:16:00 AM GMT+2  


Not sure where the statistic about "Most" couples from The treife medina returning comes from, but my understanding is that of all english speaking aliyah only a quarter returns to Galut, and the frum community is generally the most likely to stay and stays longest.

What I for sure know is that from a religious perspective, not coming for financial reasons shows a complete lack of faith in G-d who would not ask of you to make aliyah if you were not capable of achieving it.

Now of course, I happen to think that is twaddle, as G-d, if she exists, probably doesn't care if you make Aliyah. But I, as a Jew living in the state of Israel, absolutely do care. Because let's face it - you not making aliyah is hurting my cause in the international community. By your very presence in Galut - by your rejection of the national home, you are proving the arguments of those who claim we have no real rights here. That we are not a people - because let's face it - our whole argument rests on the fact that we were exiled from this land. If we choose to stay in "exile" then it is pretty clear that we aren't really in exile and we have become a religious grouping with little or no claim to the land. So - I don't care if you never make aliyah - but make a choice. Either with the Jewish people or not. And if not, then be a happy american.

Idealist and realist.


By Anonymous H, at Sun Dec 04, 09:45:00 AM GMT+2  

Haim, you always manage to bring a smile to my face...

As much as we disagree on things, on this point we are on the same page.

Ezzie, no one said Aliyah is supposed to be easy - just as for some, keeping Shabbat isn't easy, and for others fasting on Yom Kippur sucks - but we do it b/c thats what Hashem has asked of us...

There is no question that this is where hashem wants the Jewish People to be, and that this is the only place where the mitzvot in the Torah can be actualized (not just the ones relating specifically to the Land).

Haim is very correct in his assesment - the Jews of America are going through the Babylon (or Bayit Sheini) syndrome, whereby, when they have a chance to come home to Israel and help fulfill the destiny of the jewish People, they, like their brothers and sisters in babylon 2,000 years ago, by and large preferred the flesh pots of Exile to the Temple in Jerusalem.

Ezzie, I want you and ther Jews to make Aliyah for the reasons that Haim mentions, but for other more important reasons as well. There are so many mitzvot i nthe Torah that only become relevant once the majority (or even all of the Jews are living in the Land) - and we will only be able to truly fulfill our purpose and potential as a nation when the vast majorty if the Jewish people are living here in Israel...

Like I said before, be smart, but set a date, set a $ amount that you need, and lets go already...

By Blogger Ze'ev, at Sun Dec 04, 09:59:00 AM GMT+2  


If only there were something as compelling as the voice of G-d that would make rational people make aliyah as well. Don't get me wrong - every Jew should come, but why does it have to be all the religious fanatical right-wingers who DO come? Why oh why?


By Anonymous H, at Sun Dec 04, 10:07:00 AM GMT+2  

Haim, you hit the nail o nthe head... 1st, for most Jews, especially the religious - the Voice of G-d is not enough to get them to move...

2nd, why in the owrld would someone who doesn't believe in G-d want ot live in israel? They can live in 1st rate America, without all of the challenges that go along with living in 2nd rate Israel!

Don't get me wrong, I love it here, but a lot of that comes b/c I fee lthat my living here is helping ot take an active role i nthe fulfillemtn of the Jewish destiny and the only place where, as a jew, I can actualize my potential on both the individual and nationa levels - for someone who doesn't believe in any of that nonsense, why live here?

By Blogger Ze'ev, at Sun Dec 04, 10:19:00 AM GMT+2  


Only why can't you believe in that "nonsense" but understand it differently - that is to say - secularly. The Jewish destiny is as much a part of my G-dless Jewish narrative as it is of your G-d-centred one, no? In fact more so - for me the Jewish people who make up the Jewish people are central, for you G-d is central, which is actually the same G-d as for Muslims and Christians, so don't you have more in common with them than you do with the Jewish People? Your desire to deride the belief in Jewish peoplehood unless it is linked to an irrational belief in G-d and your rabbi, is what makes the messianist settler movement a separatist movement from Zionism and verges on taking them away from the Jewish People altogether.

By Anonymous H, at Sun Dec 04, 02:05:00 PM GMT+2  

I want to crash this debate belatedly and add to H's comments- I don't get where you decided to equate "Idealism" with Religious Zionism. I'm an idealist too, but my ideal vision of the state is different to yours- as well as being secure within its own borders, it also includes an end to violence against women, racial discrimination and poverty. Would you even consider me (or H) to be idealists too? I can't help but wonder.

And Shavua Tov, H- saw you found the "Elite". Good :)

By Anonymous PP, at Sun Dec 04, 02:31:00 PM GMT+2  


Just wrote out a whole long comment that Blogger ate up...

PP - I didn't say that only one who shares my worldview can be an idealist, rather anyone who lives by their ideals is an idealists ,even if those ideals are the oens shared by yourself and Haim, or those held by an ISM activist (no comparisson).


1st, Why is it so irrationa lto believe in G-d?

is it no less rational to believe and practice a religion / faith that was made up by a bunch of monkeys or their equivalent thousands of years ago? Why should I live by what some uncultured boar believed - its not like he spoke to G-d or anything, b/c there is no G-d, remember?

2nd, When you speak of the Jewish People and being focused on the Jewish People - do you mean the Jewish People that includes the Arabs and other non-Jewish Jews or the other Jewish People?

3rd, Since when did believing in the Mashiach become an extremist belief? Do you not believe in the coming of the Mashiach? Do you, perhaps, believe that he has come already? Maybe died for our sins?

4th, I believe that it is more than just the "settlers" that believe in G-d and traditional, normative Judaism...

By Blogger Ze'ev, at Sun Dec 04, 02:56:00 PM GMT+2  

Z Baby,

1) I did not for one minute suggest that all belief in G-d is irrational - I was saying that yours is. And it is. As you have told me in private conversation - that is to say, you could "prove" the probability of G-d rationally as many have done in the past from philosophical axioms but actually that does not have anything to do with your faith.

2) No - it is the Jewish People made up of edumaeans, patrilineally descended Jews such as Itzhak and Ya'acov, members of the mixed multitude, and the people who returned with the exiles from Babylon.

3)Believing in the meshiah is not extremist as such, but that is not what I said, once again. The point is that the majority of the Jewish people do not believe that the occupation is worth the death of the Jewish democratic state - and you do, therefore you on the extremes. (But remember, I have nothing against extremism as such - just when it is extremely fascist).

4) Never did I suggest that it was only settlers with whom I am willing to argue / blame for the problems of the Jewish people. Any G-d squadders are fair game for my wrath. (Sarcasm warning)

By Anonymous H, at Sun Dec 04, 04:34:00 PM GMT+2  

Haim, what on earth is a G-d squadder?

Is it a British thing?

Met your friend Yossi from Manchester last night...

By Blogger Ze'ev, at Sun Dec 04, 04:45:00 PM GMT+2  

A G-d squadder, definition:

Anyone of any faith who believes in G-d and is willing to use belief in such G-d as a reason for any form of activity, in particular forcing any particular faith, religion or belief down the throats of the rest of us.

Yossi is fantastic - please G-d, you did not meet him and any form of fascists convention. (Meeting of Ihud Leumi or the such like).

By Anonymous H, at Sun Dec 04, 04:58:00 PM GMT+2  

No - not at a fascist get together - I spoke to a group of young olim and potential olim last night, and he was there.,.. Ask what he thought of what I had to say...

By Blogger Ze'ev, at Sun Dec 04, 05:08:00 PM GMT+2  

Like I said before, be smart, but set a date, set a $ amount that you need, and lets go already...

That I agree with - I tell everyone the same thing.

I'll note that there are a couple (halachic) exceptions to living in E'Y - equating it with Shabbos and Yom Kippur is WAY over the top.

Also, as much as we are supposed to go to EY, it would be useless to go if we would not be happy there. I don't think that going there unprepared and financially unstable is a great way to live life - no matter where it is. Nobody is saying "don't go to Israel" - I'm saying you have to be smart and realistic even as you're idealistic.

You want to complain about the huge swaths of people who are so "pro-Israel", and can easily afford to move there, yet don't? Sure - I'm right there with you. But you can't complain about those who want to do so wisely. I'm sorry if I'm wrong on the "most" claim - that is exactly how it was represented to me by many people. But 25% is a really, really high number! And that depends on who they're counting - only official olim? I know many people who try it out, but since they may not stay if it doesn't work out, don't become official olim. They don't want to blow it for when they are able to make it. The percentage of those who don't make it is probably much higher.

By Blogger Ezzie, at Mon Dec 05, 05:29:00 AM GMT+2  

So Ezzie,

I am intrigued - you seem to reject the concept that it is a mitzvah to make aliyah and hence you are metzuveh to do it (or are we going to get into a whole long halachic discussion of mitvot aseh and mitzvot kayam?). But I am wondering how you react to my claim that by choosing to stay in exile, you negate that it is an exile and therefore destroy the case for Israel in the international community and harm the legitimacy of the state and endanger the security of its inhabitants? Any thoughts?

You will have to excuse my ridiculous pushy rudeness. Not only am I now an Israeli, but if there is something more infuriating to me than a right winger, it is a right winger not living here.


By Anonymous H, at Mon Dec 05, 06:58:00 AM GMT+2  


The observance of the mitzvah of Living in Israel is one of 7 Mitzvot in the Torah which is equal to all of the other Mitzvot in the Torah, and as such, there is no stretch comparing it to Shabbat or anything else in the Torah.

Also, since when are we only obligated to perform Mitzvot that make us happy? That isn't to say that one can't be happy living in Israel - butif it is a mitzvah to live here, then it isn't up to us to decide as to whether or not we will be happy here...

I don't know who these 25% are - maybe they were religious, maybe they werent, maybe they planned properly, maybe they didn't - there isn't any real info about these people - and most info is second hand conjecture...

However, if one really believes that the Jewish People are meant to live in Israel, they will make every effort possible to make it work, and will not pack it in just b/c things are a little tough here...

Sure, in the beggining you might have to change your lifestyle and do things that you wouldnt have ordinrily done living in the US, but its all about priorities - what's really important to you?

I'm not saying not ot be smart about Aliyah - but if you're going to come, then make it happen - most people in this area are all talk. Yes, it might mean having to work in a profession that isn't the one you plan on doing the rest of your life, at first - it might mean not having a car... who knows - but you'll be home, where Hashem wants you to be - and that's worth a whole heck of a lot, too.

Haim - don't give Ezzie a hard time - he's not a right-winger like me...

By Blogger Ze'ev, at Mon Dec 05, 09:42:00 AM GMT+2  

Haim, I never rejected that it is a mitzvah to live in E'Y at all.

I absolutely do not see how people living in exile somehow 'negates' the exile or affects Israel's international standing. Do you seriously think that if all the Jews moved to Israel, then the UN would love Israel?

I'm sorry it infuriates you - it often bothers me as well. You should not get the impression that I disagree with anything either you or Ze'ev say about the importance of moving to E"Y - rather, that moving all of a sudden with no plan is rather foolish. It's back to the original Q, Idealism v. Reality.

Ze'ev - Yet, there's reasons why people are allowed to live outside E'Y.

I was hoping you would not pick on the word 'happy' - I do believe you understand what I mean by that, though I used the first word that came to mind. Nevertheless, I'd argue that happiness does play a role in determining whether or not one should move to E'Y. If one is unhappy, it ruins not only their own ability to perform mitzvos, but their family's as well.

The 25% (or whatever) : Conjecture? Hardly. Considering all the people I know who lived there and ended up having to come back here, I'd hesitate before calling it conjecture. And many of them were just as (if not more) 'idealistic' than you seem to be. A great friend who lives in Efrat and hates being in the US had to come here for college (after which she plans on returning immediately). This is simply because there was no way for her to do this in Israel because of her situation, whatever that may be.

Ze'ev, you're judging the people who moved back, and assuming that they 'packed it in' because things were 'a little tough'. My sister's good friend once remarked (even as they had 15 guests every Shabbos) that she never knew if they could pay the rent that month, among other things. They made it about 6 years, but now they're moving to Montreal. You can't assume that because you're making it, and you can handle some of the struggles, that everyone else should be able to as well.

Do I need a big house? No, I live in a 1-BR apartment and can have 20 people still feel comfortable at a meal. Do I need a car? Nope, don't have one.

Is Israel a priority? Yes, a big one. Does it supersede everything? No - and any rav who you'd ask would likely agree.

By Blogger Ezzie, at Mon Dec 05, 10:18:00 AM GMT+2  


1) You say that if all the Jews move to israel the UN still won't love us...

Well, you remember the scene in the 1st matrix, where Morpheus tells neo that when he starts believing that he's The One, things will be different, and then Neo says, "You mean, I will be able to dodge bullets", to which Morpheus responds - "You won't have to"...

Same thing here. I truly believe that when all of the Jewish People are living in Israel we wont need to worry about the UN anymore (they're like those pesky agents...)

2) Ezzie, it's funny. b/c Aliyah is one of the few things that Haim and eye see eye to eye on. As for coming with a plan - so make a plan, do what you need ot do, and come... But 10 - 15 year plans are not very "realisitc"...

3) True, there are reasons. The Rambam lists a few reasons as to why someone can leave Israel (temporarily, and on conditionthat he returns soon): 1) make a living, 2) marriage, 3) Torah study...

Thankfully almost all of those can be found in Israe ltoday, to a greater or lesser degree.

Also, how many people actually ask a Halachic authority abouttheir particular cirumstances, as to whether it merits their being allowed to live outside of Israel 9and if they do ask, arethey asking someone who actually believes tha ta Jew should live in Israel, or someone who has not intention himself of ever leaving?)

4) How could I not jump on the use of the word "happy" - you left yourself open for it...

What if a person isn't happy keeping Shabbat or Kashrut, or Taharat Hamishpacha, can he opt out, since it might affect how he relates to Hashem?

5) Ezzie, you misundersootd me. I am not saying that people who left Israel didnt have good reasons for doing so, but there has never been a documented study of these people for us to be able to make any type of generalizations about who they were and why they left - everything is second hand...

It's not a matter of judging these people. Like I said, i dont know why they left, and it doesn't really matter why. Every person needs to do what they need to do to make it a reality for themselves. We are not alking about moving to Brooklyn, or teaneck, or LA. We are talking about moving to the one placei nthe world where hashem has basically made it clear that if you want ot have a real relationship with Him, that that's where it's going to be (see the Avot).

&) I am not sure what you mean about living in Israel superceding everything... I do believe that the vast majority of jewish authorities will agree that a Jew can not fulfill his potential, neither as an individual or as a nation living in Exile... so, that's a pretty big deal - and I think that most Rabbi's would agree with that (at least those living in Israel - but maybe they're partial...)

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